Draft Combined Authorities (Overview and Scrutiny Committees, Access to Information and Audit Committees) Order 2016

Jim McMahon Excerpts

Wednesday 11th January 2017 General Committees

[Jim McMahon (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. We do not intend to oppose the draft order, which is standard. It brings the combined authorities into line with existing practice in local government, local councils and the outside bodies that respond to those councils. That is the right thing to do. A great deal of power, responsibility and finance has been devolved to combined authorities and it is important that members of the public have confidence that that money is being spent in the right way for the proper reasons and that processes are in place to make sure that people are held to account for their decisions.

I suspect that a lot of people have not been excited by combined authorities, although perhaps I have been. It has been quite a technocratic exercise and is not the type of conversation that we have with friends and family, but the more powers and finance that are devolved and the more difficult decisions that have to be made, the wiser the public will be to the powers of the combined authority.

It is interesting that the order comes at this time. In Greater Manchester, consultation on the Greater Manchester spatial framework will close on Monday. That significant document will potentially mean the loss of a great deal of green space to provide for a population effectively equivalent to a new borough—growth is projected at a quarter of a million people before 2035.

A lot of people do not believe the spatial framework has been developed in a transparent way, do not feel that they have had a route to engage in the process early on and are not quite sure how open the process of scrutiny and transparency will be. At a different time—in 12 months’ time, for instance—that would have gone to the overview and scrutiny committee and would have been tested. The evidence base, the recommendations and the submissions from the public would have been reviewed and tested against the final proposals to be submitted to the Secretary of State.

It strikes me that we are in an odd position: people, certainly in Greater Manchester—I accept it is unique given how advanced it is—may well be disadvantaged because of the timing of this. Will the Minister bring forward, or potentially delay, the spatial framework process to allow for a scrutiny process to be put into place, so proper public scrutiny can be given?

On transparency, let us be honest: we might like meeting in dusty community rooms, halls and council meeting rooms, but most members of the public go to work, spend time with their families and are busy. Webstreaming of council meetings and scrutiny meetings within councils has proven to be a success in London and many local authorities across the country; it allows people not only to watch debates live, but to revert back to a debate as a point of reference in future if they need to. Given the amount of responsibility being devolved to combined authorities, it strikes me that that is a very reasonable thing for the Minister to promote among the combined authorities.

I am pleased that the Centre for Public Scrutiny will play a role. It has a long and distinguished track record of making sure that scrutiny functions are respected, properly resourced and engaged in a proactive way, rather than being seen as an inconvenience by people who are trying to make decisions quickly. Scrutiny can add value to the quality of decisions being made, so I offer that my full support.

In general, it is pleasing to see the development of combined authorities in the way we have this week. These can be very technocratic debates—the two yesterday certainly were—but they are important in building the foundation to provide for proper decision making, proper scrutiny and, hopefully, further devolved powers going forward.

[Andrew Percy]

I thank the shadow Minister for his warm words and his support for the provision, because it is important. I am also pleased that he is excited by the creation of combined authorities. I, too, get really excited at the creation of combined authorities. We should go out for a pint some time and discuss it; we can probably guarantee that nobody else would want to join us. [Interruption.] I heard a “Hear hear!” there.

These bodies are important. They will take powers and money from this place and devolve decision making over them to local communities. As I said in the debate yesterday, it is true that a lot of people in the Dog and Duck are not talking about this, but it is a developing process. As the structures come into place, people start to see that the Mayor they are electing is not only somebody with a chain around their neck who goes around opening schools and doing all of the civic stuff—important though that may be—but somebody with real power. The evidence from London shows that, once the structures are in place, people appreciate that and engage with Mayors more.

Although it is strictly outside the subject of the debate, I will say something about the spatial plan. As I said in the Westminster Hall debate that I responded to on behalf of the Planning Minister, spatial plans can be signed off only if all the constituent members of the combined authority sign it off. Those members are the leaders of each individual council. It is not for me to set that timeframe; it is for that combined authority to determine whether it wants the process to go through their internal overview and scrutiny structures. If any council leader who is a constituent member of that combined authority wants to put that plan through the scrutiny functions in their local authority, that is a matter for them. They can do that today; they do not need to wait for other combined authorities, or for those overview and scrutiny functions, to appear.

[Jim McMahon]

I am not sure that what the Minister has mentioned is quite in the spirit of scrutiny, which allows for members of local authorities and the combined authorities in the measure to hold decision makers to account. Statements from the leaders of the councils on spatial framework scrutiny in Greater Manchester give me the impression that they themselves will decide whether they want to be scrutinised or not before the decision is made. That does not seem to be in the spirit of the measure. At the moment, there is no requirement for the spatial framework to be passed by the component councils; the requirement is only that it is passed by a majority vote at the combined authority itself. Will the Minister give us some clarity on that?

[Andrew Percy]

I believe each constituent council has to consent to that plan; I will write to the shadow Minister on that. The fact remains that these are not unelected individuals—these are the elected leaders of each local authority that makes up a combined authority, who started this process and who have to agree to it. If they or their constituent councils want to go through the current scrutiny process that they have at the moment, they can do that of course. The situation will be resolved as soon as the elections are undertaken and the Mayor and the overview and scrutiny functions are in place.

It is not possible for me to create a structure now for something that has not yet come into being, but the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that the plan should be subject to public engagement, as should all major planning decisions. There has been a consultation—again, as I said in the earlier debate, I cannot pretend that lots of people necessarily engage in planning consultations, just as they have not engaged in the establishment of these combined authorities, but there is that process. The hon. Gentleman made his point in the Westminster Hall debate, and he has made it again.

I agree with the hon. Gentleman about public access, the final issue that he raised. I am more than happy to support and encourage these combined authorities to make their meetings as accessible as possible, be that online or whatever. Live webstreaming meetings involve cost, of course, and it is for each local combined authority to determine its particular processes and how it wants to do that.

When I was on the city council in Hull, we had live webstreamed meetings; I think we got 60 views afterwards, which was the total number of councillors on the council, so I am not sure how well watched they were. However, the meetings were available to people, and ensuring that there is as much accessibility as possible in the process is important. However, we should remember that the majority of people who will make up these overview and scrutiny committees are locally elected councillors, who are, of course, chosen by the people to represent them, and they will do an important job of holding to account the combined authority and the Mayor.

Question put and agreed to.