Constitutional Law

Debate between Jim McGovern and Michael Moore

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

The hon. Gentleman highlights an important point. He is right to suggest that, if this House and the other place agree this order and it is passed, that will transfer responsibility for the referendum totally to the Scottish Parliament.

Following the respective consultations, a period of discussions between Scotland’s two Governments led to the signing of the Edinburgh agreement on 15 October. I will return to the other important elements of that agreement shortly, but first I want to deal with the order itself.

The order is made under section 30(2) and (4) of the Scotland Act 1998. It inserts a new paragraph 5A into part 1 of schedule 5 to the Act. Part 1 provides, among other things, that the Union of the kingdoms of Scotland and England is reserved to the UK Parliament. New paragraph 5A will ensure that the reservation does not apply to a referendum on independence, provided that the referendum meets the requirements set out. Those requirements are for a single-question referendum, on the subject of independence, to be held before the end of 2014, and without any other referendum provided for by an Act of the Scottish Parliament being held on the same day.

The order also makes provision in respect of public referendum broadcasts and free mailshots, which would otherwise be outside the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Under the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000—PPERA, as we know it —referendum campaign broadcasts can be made only by or on behalf of a designated campaign organisation. The order applies that provision of PPERA to an independence referendum. That means that the restriction in PPERA on who can make referendum campaign broadcasts can apply to the independence referendum.

The agreement in 2006 between the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport and the BBC requires the BBC to broadcast referendum campaign broadcasts, as defined by PPERA. The provisions of the order mean that the BBC will have the same obligations and responsibilities in respect of independence referendum campaign broadcasts as it would have in respect of any PPERA referendum broadcasts. Under PPERA, each designated campaign organisation can send a mailshot to every elector or household without being required to pay the postage costs. That service is provided by Royal Mail and the costs are recovered from the Consolidated Fund. The order applies those provisions in PPERA to an independence referendum. It specifically provides that the cost to the Royal Mail of providing the service will be recovered from Scottish Ministers.

The section 30 order that we are debating today will enable the Scottish Parliament to legislate for a legal referendum. The Scottish Parliament has already considered the order and approved it unanimously. If the order is approved by both Houses of this Parliament, it will enable the Scottish Government to introduce a referendum Bill setting out the wording of the question, the date of the referendum and the rules of the campaign for the Scottish Parliament to consider. This devolution of power will ensure that the details of the referendum process itself are made in Scotland, in the Scottish Parliament. That is a principle of great importance to the devolution settlement. Furthermore, the approach here respects another key feature of devolution—namely, that once a matter is passed to the Scottish Parliament, it is for that Parliament to determine the details of the legislation that follows.

However, our agreement does not just make the referendum legal and respect the devolution settlement. It also sets out the conditions that are necessary and that have been agreed between the UK and Scottish Governments for the referendum to be fair and decisive. In this context, it is important to consider the memorandum of agreement alongside the order. The agreement is a statement of political intent by Scotland’s two Governments. It commits us jointly to an approach to, and the delivery of, the independence referendum which will ensure that the proceedings are fair and that the outcome is decisive. With permission, Mr Speaker, I will therefore briefly describe that broader agreement.

At the heart of any fair referendum must lie a set of rules and processes that have the support of both sets of protagonists. For the outcome to be legitimate, both sides of the argument must have faith in all aspects of the referendum. That is particularly true when we are considering the future of our nation. The agreement therefore sets out the commitment of both Governments to the normal rules and procedures that govern referendums in the UK, as contained in PPERA. A core part of the PPERA process is the central role of the Electoral Commission. The two Governments have agreed that the Electoral Commission must review the proposed referendum question, and that its report will be laid before the Scottish Parliament. That process is under way. Since PPERA came into force, there have been three referendums held under that legislation.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that, if the Scottish Government were to disagree with the Electoral Commission on what form the question should take, that position would be open to a legal challenge?

[Michael Moore]

I think that there would be a price to pay for that. If the hon. Gentleman will be patient, I shall return to that issue shortly.

The three referendums held under the auspices of the Electoral Commission have been: the north-east regional assembly referendum in 2004; the referendum in Wales in 2011 on further devolution; and the referendum on the voting system for the UK Parliament, also held in 2011. In all three cases, the Electoral Commission reviewed the Government’s proposed question and provided its advice. The Government responded by revising the questions in line with that advice. Of course, in the past, some Members on the SNP Benches have referred to the wording of the proposed question for referendums on local council tax.

The Government made it clear when they brought forward the regulations to provide for those referendums that discussions were ongoing with the Electoral Commission on the wording of the question. Revised regulations were tabled on 8 January and the Electoral Commission has confirmed that it is content with the revised wording.

Under the terms of the Edinburgh agreement, it will be for the Scottish Government to respond to the advice of the Electoral Commission. The Scottish Government have committed to putting before the Scottish Parliament their response to the Electoral Commission’s recommendations. That means that the Scottish Government will be held to account by the public and Parliament alike for how they respond to that advice. All Opposition leaders in the Scottish Parliament have stated their intention to abide by the Electoral Commission’s judgment in this case. To do otherwise would be a significant step, for which there would be a political price.

As I have set out, both Governments recognise that the referendum process must be seen to be fair by both sides of the campaign. That applies across the process, but particularly to the financing of the campaign. As part of the Edinburgh agreement, the Scottish Government committed to consulting the two campaign organisations for their views before proposing spending limits for the referendum campaign to the Scottish Parliament.

The agreement ensures that the independent Electoral Commission will provide the Scottish Government with advice on the appropriate spending limits for the two campaigns and the parties. That is what has happened in previous referendums, such as the 2011 referendum in Wales on further powers for the Welsh Assembly. In that referendum, the Electoral Commission recommended that the spending limit for designated campaign organisations should be set by reference to the expenditure limits that apply to elections to the relevant legislature. In its response to both Governments’ consultation documents, the Electoral Commission provided its view that the model remains appropriate for the Scottish independence referendum. The Electoral Commission has met the parties represented in the Scottish Parliament to seek their views on the finance arrangements.

When the Scottish Government set out their final proposals for financing the referendum campaign in the referendum Bill, they must set themselves aside from their own campaigning interests and recognise that their approach is being watched by all of Scotland, and indeed by the international community. That is a point that the Deputy First Minister recognised when she rightly said that the poll must satisfy the highest international standards. All people must believe that there is a fair process and, therefore, a fair result.

Both Governments agree that the basis for the franchise will be that for the Scottish Parliament elections—that is, those UK or EU citizens who are resident in Scotland. That is set out in the Edinburgh agreement. In addition, the Scottish Government propose to give 16 and 17-year-olds the right to vote. I recognise and respect that there are differing views on that issue in the House. My party, the Liberal Democrat party, supports the principle of 16 and 17-year-olds participating in all elections. Our coalition partners do not, however. Views on both sides of the argument can be found on both sides of the Chamber.

In devolving the power to hold the referendum, however, we respect that this is a matter that should be debated and determined by the Scottish Parliament. Indeed, where the Scottish Government and Parliament have the power to hold referendums and elections already, they have chosen to allow some 16 and 17-year-olds to vote. However, the Scottish Parliament’s decision with respect to health board and crofting commission elections in Scotland has set no precedent for any elections for which the UK Government are responsible. I fully expect that the Scottish Government’s proposals will be debated robustly in the Scottish Parliament. However, let me be clear that it will be for the Scottish Government to make the case for this proposal in the Scottish Parliament and to deal with the issues that arise. Let me be equally clear that any decision taken by the Scottish Parliament for the referendum will not affect the voting age for parliamentary and local government elections in the United Kingdom. That remains the responsibility of this Parliament alone to determine.

[Michael Moore]

That issue was discussed during the negotiations leading up to the Edinburgh agreement. However, as we made plain in the agreement and as I have repeated this afternoon, as we are devolving that power, it is for the Scottish Government to bring forward their proposals. That will require legislation and that legislation will be properly scrutinised by all of us and, in particular, by MSPs. That process is yet to get under way.

[Jim McGovern]

When I have visited schools in Dundee recently, it has been pointed out to me that it would be ridiculous if 16 and 17-year-olds were allowed to vote on the future of the country, but could not buy a packet of sparklers on Guy Fawkes night.

[Michael Moore]

That is a classic example of the debate that rages over whether 16 and 17-year-olds should vote in elections. I take it from that intervention that the hon. Gentleman is not a supporter. However, this is a matter for the Scottish Parliament.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jim McGovern and Michael Moore

Wednesday 9th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

There are many ways in the which the SNP and the hon. Member for Dundee East are completely wrong—I agree with the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone) on that. He makes an important point that, amid all the SNP’s turmoil over its position on Europe, it has never set out how it would negotiate the opt-out from the critical central requirement to join the euro.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

13. Last year, on 5 December, I took part in a Westminster Hall debate in which the Under-Secretary said that he had commissioned a report into why the separatist-led Dundee city council was the worst-performing local authority in Scotland with regard to the Work programme. I have contacted his office several times since, but he has yet to get back to me. On 19 December, he said that I would get a letter with more details, but I have yet to receive it. When will the report be published?

Scotland’s Constitutional Future

Debate between Jim McGovern and Michael Moore

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

I hope that the Scottish National party will engage with this. I am pretty sure that it will because when it gets the chance to study the detail, it will see that what we are offering is a very reasonable process by which we can get rid of the legal uncertainty and have a fairly conducted and decisive referendum.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

Further to an earlier question about the manifesto, is the Secretary of State aware that nowhere in the SNP manifesto, as far as I am aware, does it say that a referendum will take place in the second part of the Parliament? It says only that a referendum will take place. It constantly tells us that it has an overwhelming mandate to hold a referendum in the second half of the Parliament; that is strictly not true.

[Michael Moore]

The manifesto was clear. It was about a straightforward question on independence, not about the timing. We believe this should happen sooner rather than later, and I look forward to the responses that we get from people across Scotland.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jim McGovern and Michael Moore

Wednesday 4th May 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

8. What steps the Government is taking to reduce the level of unemployment in Scotland; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

Unemployment has fallen steadily since August 2010 and employment has increased in the same period. This is a welcome sign. Supporting companies to create and sustain jobs and helping people into work are key priorities for the Government. On 19 May I am hosting a seminar in north Ayrshire, in the constituency of the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), on youth unemployment, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will join me at this important event.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Moore]

In response to the question from the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin), I said that youth unemployment had been a problem for a good long period across the United Kingdom, including under the previous Government during periods of growth. The Prime Minister, the Work and Pensions Secretary, I and everybody else recognise the need to bring it down, which is why we are meeting to discuss the core issues behind the problem, and why, through the Get Britain Working programme and the Work programme, which we have discussed already, we are introducing measures to get young and old alike off the unemployment register and back into productive work.

[Jim McGovern]

When will the penny eventually drop for the coalition Government? Last week in response to the Scottish Affairs Committee report on the computer games industry, the Government said that there is no case for tax incentives for the computer games industry, which is very important to this country. That was rather callous coming a week after another computer games company in my constituency went bust. Will the Government accept the blatantly obvious fact that if we want companies to set up in this country, we have to offer incentives at least comparable to those offered by our competitors overseas?

[Michael Moore]

First, may I again recognise the hon. Gentleman’s consistent efforts on behalf of the computer games industry? I recognise the importance of the industry not just to Dundee and Scotland, but to the UK as a whole. As he knows—and as I hope the response to the Select Committee’s report reinforces—we have considered very carefully the incentives we need to offer not just to the computer games industry, but to a whole range of sectors in Scotland and across the country. It is our judgment that to get ourselves away from the danger zone we were in last May, it is important to tackle the deficit and to get ourselves on the path to growth. We have done that in successive Budgets setting out plans to reduce corporation tax, to keep interest levels low, to reduce the national insurance burden and to set out important new targets for banks and their lending to small businesses. That applies to the computer industry sector as much as to any others. Once again I will be happy to meet him to discuss the matter, if he would like.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jim McGovern and Michael Moore

Wednesday 9th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

8. What assessment he has made of recent trends in levels of employment in Scotland.

[The Secretary of State for Scotland (Michael Moore)]

Although the final quarter of 2010 saw falling unemployment and rising employment in Scotland, helping people into work remains a key priority for this Government.

[Michael Moore]

In a compendium of issues, the hon. Gentleman forgets to mention the role that his own Government played in the management of the economy up until last May. Our overriding priority is to get a path to sustainable growth, and that means stabilising the economy, which is what the deficit reduction plan is about, and ensuring that we support businesses by reducing tax, maintaining interest rates lower than they would otherwise have been and helping businesses to access finance. We have a real programme of action, unlike the previous Government.

[Jim McGovern]

Rising unemployment is a great concern in my constituency of Dundee West. In fairness to the Secretary of State, he did visit Dundee to see for himself the importance of the computer games industry to the city, but does he continue to support the Government’s stance of not implementing a tax break, which both the Lib Dems and the Tories claimed to support prior to the general election? If so, what plans does he have for job creation in my city of Dundee?

[Michael Moore]

As I have said previously to the hon. Gentleman, our visit together to Abertay university was very worth while, and he makes a strong case for the computer games industry. Taxation is clearly a matter for the Chancellor, and the Budget is coming along soon, but, as I said in answer to his hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray) a moment ago, the overriding thing, which will help the computer games industry and everybody else, is to get us back on a sustainable path to growth. That is our overwhelming priority.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Jim McGovern and Michael Moore

Thursday 27th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Michael Moore]

The Bill reflects the balance of the representations that we have seen and the different legal basis on which matters have been approached in Scotland to date. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make the broader case in Committee, we look forward to hearing that.

[Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)]

On the Secretary of State’s point about the change to the Scotland Act to allow “the Scottish Executive” to become “the Scottish Government”, that term has been quite commonplace since the last Scottish general election. However, if there is no such thing as the Scottish Government in legislation, does he believe that the amendment tabled by the six separatists in the House is competent, as it refers to “the Scottish Government”?

[Michael Moore]

Far be it from me to be drawn into these matters. I can only assume that the amendment is competent, as it is on our Order Paper this afternoon. However, the common parlance is now “the Scottish Government”. It will help if Government Departments no longer feel that, legally, they must refer to the Scottish Executive, when nobody else does. Also, we will be able to refer to “the Scottish Government” in the House, rather than “the Scottish Executive”.

The Bill does not set out every proposal from Calman. In some cases, legislation is not required. For example, the commission recommended much closer co-operation and communication between Administrations and between Parliaments. Many of the proposals require change to working practices, to which the Government are committed. I know that Mr Speaker, the Lord Speaker and the Presiding Officer will determine the appropriate basis on which to develop relationships between our Parliaments.

In fulfilling our commitment to implement the Calman recommendations, there are some cases in which we have deviated from the precise recommendations because the policy content at UK level has changed, for example in relation to air passenger duty, which the Government are reviewing. In other cases, however, we have gone further than the commission, building on and strengthening its recommendations. This is the first time since the creation of devolution that a Government have brought forward legislation with such wide-ranging effect on the current settlement. Indeed, the Bill will fundamentally change the powers and responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament. For that reason, the Government will proceed with the Bill only with the formal and explicit consent of the Scottish Parliament. It is right and proper that the Scottish Parliament should examine the measures that we set out in the Scotland Bill. I welcome the thorough way in which it is going about its business, and I look forward to returning to discuss the provisions with the Bill Committee in the Scottish Parliament next week.

Devolution breathed new life into Scottish politics and Scottish society. It brought government closer to the Scottish people, and it shaped a more confident Scotland in a more secure United Kingdom. The Bill extends that settlement for the future. The first chapter of devolution began with the Scotland Act 1998; the second chapter opened on St Andrew’s day, when we published this Bill. The Bill reflects the work of many across this Chamber and in Holyrood: work that we have undertaken together with consensus, strengthening Scotland’s future within the United Kingdom. I commend it to the House.

[Jim McGovern]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I raised this point earlier with the Secretary of State. Is the amendment competent, given that it refers to a Scottish Government who apparently do not exist at the moment?