International Development (India)

Debate between Jeremy Corbyn and Martin Horwood

Thursday 26th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I shall briefly make a couple of points on India. My points will be half made, because, as I said, time is restricted and it should not be.

I welcome what has been said about the enormous poverty in India, and the number of people involved. I do not agree with the view in the popular press that we should not give aid to India; I think we should. I want to draw attention, as I did when I intervened on the right hon. Member for Gordon (Malcolm Bruce), to the treatment of Dalit peoples. I say that because I am chair of the trustees of the Dalit Solidarity Network.

Dalits are the largest group of people in the world who are systematically discriminated against on the basis of their descent and caste. They perform the worst jobs in the dirtiest conditions, and have the shortest life expectancy, the lowest level of education, the worst housing and the lowest pay and employment levels of any group in India or, indeed, the rest of the world. After numerous meetings with DFID, I accept its assurance that British aid is tied; the Department makes the point that we are not going to be involved unwittingly or otherwise in discrimination against Dalit peoples through our aid programmes, and that several projects and programmes enhance the lifestyle, values and opportunities of Dalit peoples. I welcome and support that aspect of what is happening.

I want to draw attention to the issue on a wider scale. It was raised at the Durban millennium summit in 2000 and will no doubt continue to be raised elsewhere. It cannot be right that a country with India’s aspirations to modernity and to taking its place in the world, including a permanent place on the UN Security Council—a country that is obviously a major power in every aspect—can allow such discrimination to continue. Whenever I have raised that matter with Ministers or politicians in India, during visits to India, or with the high commission here, those concerned always point to the Indian constitution, which was written by the great Dr Ambedkar, who was himself a Dalit, although he later changed his faith from Hindu to Buddhism. Dr Ambedkar’s constitution is a remarkable document and clearly outlaws discrimination on the basis of caste or descent. However, it is equally clear that in reality Dalit people’s opportunities to get access to justice do not exist in many parts of the country. Denial of access to the law, discrimination against them by the police and by employers, and the traditions that are continued in many villages, are inimical to the interest of Dalit people.

[Martin Horwood]

The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to discrimination against Dalits, and not just Hindu Dalits. There is continuing discrimination even among people who identify themselves as Christians, or even Buddhists or Muslims, who are from Dalit families and communities. However, he must acknowledge the long-standing campaign by the Government of India to reduce discrimination and provide work opportunities. The Government should take considerable credit for the progress that they have tried to make with an admittedly enormous social problem.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

The hon. Gentleman makes a reasonable point, and I accept and understand that, because of the constitution and pressure from leaders of the Dalit community—which he rightly points out is not entirely Hindu but includes many different faiths—for a long time the Government of India have established reserved occupations and employment levels for people of Dalit descent. There is therefore a certain level of public employment of Dalit peoples, which is often the only access to any kind of normal, sustainable employment. The discrimination operates through the informality of other work, and through discrimination by a large number of private sector employers—but, interestingly, not usually the international ones; it is much more likely to be the smaller, local businesses. Some progress has been made, but the protection of a proportion of employment in public service for Dalit people often enables Governments to feel satisfied that they are doing their bit. However, it does not address the wider issues of the fundamental discrimination that goes on elsewhere.

I know that the Minister is fully aware of the matter, and I hope that the Select Committee on International Development, and the rest of the world, will keep its eye on it. The way in which 200 million people in India and in some other countries, such as Tibet, are treated because of discrimination by caste and descent is simply wrong. Apartheid in South Africa was wrong, and Dalit discrimination is equally wrong anywhere in the world.

Prevention of Nuclear Proliferation

Debate between Jeremy Corbyn and Martin Horwood

Tuesday 13th December 2011 Commons Chamber

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Absolutely. I sat in the Chamber in the run-up to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, when the House indulged in an orgy of demonisation of a particular country. That created a sufficient head of steam in public opinion that was deemed by the Governments of the day to endorse an invasion of those countries. I remind the House that 10 years later we are still in Afghanistan, we have spent £9 billion or £10 billion on wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, and there is no end in sight.

The reason the Minister gave for proposing the Financial Restrictions (Iran) Order 2011 to the House was that this is a banking order—a finance order—but he relied heavily on the IAEA reports and the issue of Iran’s nuclear capacity and nuclear capability. I stand here as somebody who is passionately opposed to nuclear power and nuclear weapons in equal measure. I believe nuclear power to be intrinsically environmentally unsustainable and dangerous, and I think nuclear weapons are absolutely immoral. However, I recognise that in law there is a distinction in that any country is allowed to develop nuclear power; it is not allowed to develop nuclear weapons.

Iran remains a signatory to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Last year’s NPT review conference came to the conclusion that the best way of bringing about a nuclear-free world—a big step—would be the creation of a nuclear-free middle east. That would, of course, mean a mechanism for negotiation involving Israel and Iran. Israel, I remind the House, has 200 nuclear warheads and the rhetoric of the Israeli leaders is strongly critical of Iran. We need to bring about a mechanism, impossible within the NPT while Israel remains outside it, and possible only within the terms of a nuclear weapons convention. I hope the Government will put considerable efforts into promoting a nuclear weapons convention, and retaining a diplomatic link and debate, negotiation and discussion within Iran.

There are those who say that the war has not started yet and there is nothing to worry about. I remind them of a number of facts. One is that the US fleet in the Gulf is enhanced and enormous. There is a US base in Bahrain. Iran shot down and captured a drone missile that had apparently strayed over the border or been deliberately sent over it, depending which narrative we care to follow. A serious and significant number of assassinations and explosions have occurred in Iran over the past few weeks, with greater and greater intensity. I do not know who is causing those explosions. It could be foreign forces; it could be internal opposition; it could be all kinds of people, but there are clearly enormous tensions. Isolating Iran in the current circumstances is more dangerous than anything else I can think of.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

The hon. Gentleman is making some interesting points, but I am not clear whether he opposes a tougher sanctions regime. Surely a tougher regime is the peaceful means by which we will persuade Iran not to develop nuclear weapons, and therefore avoid the higher risk of another state intervening in a more aggressive and violent way.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

What I want is engagement and recognition, first, of the human rights abuses in Iran, which are clearly immoral and wrong; a great deal of attention has been drawn to those. Secondly, serious engagement is needed that does not lead us to a descent into war with all the incalculable consequences of that, not to mention very high oil prices for the rest of the world. Today’s debate is, to me, one staging post in the process. Whether the sanctions will have any effect I have no idea. I suspect they will have very limited effect, particularly as my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) pointed out that they are being imposed by Britain with the United States, virtually in isolation from the rest of the world.

I hope we have learned lessons about the folly and stupidity of getting involved in wars that allegedly are for our own protection, but in reality are often seen to be part of western expansionism and the assertion of US power within the whole region. We are here to make a decision on one fairly small aspect. I hope we can be a little more careful and sensible about this and recognise that there are very many people in Iran who will be united, as my Friend the Member for Newport West pointed out, in opposition to any foreign intervention and any invasion of Iran. Perhaps it is those people whom we should be thinking about now, rather than preparing for yet another war.

North Africa and the Middle East

Debate between Jeremy Corbyn and Martin Horwood

Thursday 17th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

Many of us are inspired by what we have been seeing in the middle east and north Africa in recent weeks and by the courage and heroism of the protesters, particularly the young people who have lived their entire lives under repression. Equally, many of us feel sick at the prospect of repression triumphing in many parts of the region.

In that vein, I welcome many of the things that the Foreign Secretary announced today. The new Arab partnership and the promise of practical support for what we hope are the emerging democracies of Egypt and Tunisia are excellent. I think he said that there would even be promotion of think-tanks. I am not entirely sure whether that is a good thing, but they are certainly better than the other kind of tank.

The Foreign Secretary also reported positive developments in both countries, including the abolition of their secret police organisations. That is welcome, but there are also worrying reports, including the recent one in Egypt about the forcible clearance of Tahrir square. The experience of Europe, Latin America and the new African democracies is that old habits sometimes die hard among security forces. Perhaps we should take up that theme with the Egyptian Government in particular and with all the emerging democratic movements.

It is also welcome that the Foreign Secretary described a bold and ambitious vision at the European level. A positive vision of transforming the European neighbourhood and actively promoting freedom, democracy, the rule of law and human rights is very good indeed, as is the role of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development in that. I hope that the Department for International Development will also play an active role in considering how that programme should be carried out. It is very important that the people of the middle east and north Africa see a democratic dividend from their transition to democracy, and DFID can play an important role in that.

Sadly, however, freedom, democracy, the rule of law and human rights are not all that British Governments have promoted in the region. In 2009, EU arms exports to Algeria, Egypt, Morocco and Tunisia, none of which enjoyed good human rights records at the time, totalled €2.3 billion. Export licences granted by the previous Government—the most recent details I have are from 2009—make disturbing reading. We sold tear gas to Bahrain, imaging cameras to Iran, bombs and missiles to Egypt, anti-riot shields to Kuwait, crowd control equipment and tear gas to Libya, crowd control ammunition to Qatar, small arms ammunition to Syria, armoured personnel carriers to Saudi Arabia and so on. For that reason, I welcome the Minister’s announcement on 17 February that we were revoking many licences to export to Bahrain, and his unambiguous statement on that day:

“We will not authorise any exports…we assess…might be used to facilitate internal repression.”

That is an incredibly important announcement.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I agree with the burden of what the hon. Gentleman says about arms sales and I welcome the suspension of arms sales to Bahrain, but we still pursue massive arms sales to Saudi Arabia, and the people dying on the streets of Bahrain are being killed with equipment that has been sent there from this country. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is time to stop the whole arms sales policy to that region?

[Martin Horwood]

Bluntly, yes—the use of Saudi arms and armour in Bahrain, particularly in the context of today’s disturbing pictures of unarmed protesters being shot in the streets by security forces, means that we must question any continuing arms sales to countries that have records of repression.

I regret that in the midst of the democratic revolutions, the Prime Minister, on his tour of the middle east, which had many positive aspects, was nevertheless accompanied by representatives of BAE Systems, QinetiQ, the Cobham group, Thales UK, Babcock International and Atkins.

In the spirit of coalition, I remind Ministers of the Liberal Democrats’ pre-election criticism of arms sales to the region, and specifically to Libya, and of our support for an international arms trade treaty and the prevention of arms sales to any regime that could use them for internal repression. That last objective has now been strongly expressed by the Minister, but I hope he confirms today that the sale of tear gas and crowd control ammunition to anyone is completely incompatible with those objectives.

There is a clear danger that Libya will not be seen in future in the same light as Egypt and Tunisia; sadly, we might see it alongside Czechoslovakia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Hungary as one of the great failures of the international community to intervene on behalf of the people. I do not envy the Foreign Secretary the decisions he must make, but I can assure him of Liberal Democrat support for any belated action by the international community, although he was right to be wary of any intervention that could be described as “western”. That would be a dangerous path to go down, and any intervention must be undertaken with wide international support.

I support the remarks made by the right hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander), the shadow Foreign Secretary, who said that we should look at other imaginative ways of intervening, particularly in respect of IT infrastructure, to make life impossible for the Libyan regime.

The hon. Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) made an eloquent speech in which he called for a complete policy rethink. There is a lot of truth in that. At UK, European and international level, we need to review how we can rapidly respond to situations such as the one in Libya. We need to do that quickly, because similar situations could soon emerge elsewhere.