NHS

Debate between Jeremy Browne and Andy Burnham

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

I have given way to the hon. Lady once: I want to make some progress.

Some, but not all, of the needs of older people are met in an acute hospital environment, which explains why their condition often drops like a stone. It is a phenomenon that was accurately identified by Robert Francis QC in his report, published a year ago this week. He called for an overhaul of the way in which older people are cared for in acute hospitals. He was right to do so, and while I applaud some of the steps the Secretary of State has taken in that regard, such as the move towards a named consultant, I do not believe it will tackle the root cause of the problem, which is the arrival of far too many older people in hospital in the first place. Only when that is tackled will we begin to address the underlying causes of the A and E crisis.

[Mr Jeremy Browne (Taunton Deane) (LD)]

I am grateful to the former Secretary of State for giving way, because I am concerned—especially as we are talking about not distorting the facts—by his initial analysis. He attributed part of the pressure on A and E to an outbreak of scurvy and rickets cases. I do not want anybody in my constituency or elsewhere to be unduly alarmed, so can he please put on the record what proportion of people reporting to A and E, including those who are not seen within four hours, are doing so because they have scurvy? He can give the numbers in absolute figures or percentages, but it is important that the House not be misled and that we are given the unvarnished truth.

[Andy Burnham]

The hon. Gentleman should climb off his high horse for a moment. In answer to an important point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), I pointed to the increase in cases of scurvy, rickets and malnutrition. If he wants—[Interruption.] If he wants to deny that that is the case, that is up to him—[Interruption.] If he speaks to A and E staff, he will hear that people who are not eating properly are turning up in ever greater numbers—[Interruption.] I have answered his point and I will now make some progress.

It is the case that too many older people are arriving at hospital in the first place. A recent Care Quality Commission report found avoidable emergency admissions for pensioners topping 500,000 for the first time—[Interruption.]

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Burnham]

I agree, and the last time we had a debate on this issue I quoted a well-known GP who said that she has taken to asking her patients whether they are eating properly, because many are presenting with unexplained symptoms that she cannot identify. People on several prescription medicines who are not eating properly are putting themselves at risk—

[Mr Browne]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andy Burnham]

I will give way once more, but I hope the hon. Gentleman makes a legitimate and reasonable point.

[Mr Browne]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. I do not dispute that there are people who live on a small amount of money or that some of those who go to see doctors are not eating adequately. But he attributed the pressures on A and E in part—he raised the issue, not me—to an increase in the number of people who are reporting to A and E with scurvy and rickets. He made that point with all the authority of a former Secretary of State, so he should tell the House how much of the extra pressure on A and E is attributable to people who have scurvy or rickets. If he does not know, why did he raise the issue in the first place?