Universal Credit

Debate between Jane Ellison and Anne Begg

Wednesday 6th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

The Committee, of which I am a member, identified those real concerns, but does the hon. Lady not agree that there are also opportunities? In my constituency, where English is a second language for many, digital by default offers the opportunity for translation and other services that will in many ways make a digital interface easier to use than a paper form.

[Dame Anne Begg]

The Government’s whole point in doing this is to make the system easier, so hopefully it will be. If it is not easier at the end of the process, we really will have got everything wrong. In the process of introducing this fully, the Government will obviously have to address some of the concerns that hon. Members have raised.

The Government’s response indicates that they expect only 50% to claim online and about 5% to get face-to-face interviews, which means 45% will claim through the telephony system. Perhaps the Minister can explain the wording in the Government’s response. It states:

“Our target is that 50% of claims which can be made online will be made online in October 2013 when Universal Credit is launched nationally.”

I am not sure that I understand that sentence. Does it mean 50% of the total number of people who will make a claim, or 50% of those who can make it online, which will not be everybody. I am not exactly sure what proportion the Government are talking about.

The Government’s response mentions face-to-face interviews, which is good, but they are still for only 5% of cases, and they give not a hint about where the interviews might take place and what proportion of them are likely to be home visits. After all, a large number of people in the universal credit cohort will have severe disabilities. They might receive other benefits that they have claimed previously, but they will also be in the universal credit cohort.

I am also glad to see that jobcentres are to have IADs—internet access devices—which sounds great. The Government response trumpets the fact that there will be computers in Jobcentre Plus offices. However, if we divide the number of computers by the number of Jobcentre Plus offices, we find that it works out at about three terminals per office, and I am not sure whether that will answer some of the questions about access to computers. Also, it appears that wi-fi is not yet available in Jobcentre Plus offices, although that is planned, as it should be available. Many people do not have a computer at home and will need to access their claim form through a public-access computer, whether in Jobcentre Plus or not. They will need help, and the Government’s response is not very clear about that. It does say that staff will be available, but it is very vague: it does not say how many or how much time they will have. Jobcentre Plus staff are already overworked. Will they have the time to sit down alongside someone until they have filled in their whole claim, or will they just get the screen up and leave them to it? For many people, that would not be enough help.

The Government say in their response that they are liaising with local authorities to supply help. However, we all know that local authority budgets are already being squeezed year on year, and that a lot of welfare rights officers, where councils have them, are disappearing, if they have not already done so. There is also a squeeze on organisations such as Citizens Advice. This is such a big undertaking that it is incumbent on the Government to make sure that this help, of the necessary quantity and quality, is there and that people know how to access it. It has occurred to me that as some local authority staff will no longer be employed in administering housing benefit, they might be an experienced resource that the Government could call on to act as advisers in providing the help that many people will need to make an online claim.

Another big area of concern about UC is that it will be paid once a month into a single bank account for each household. The Government’s response says that the Secretary of State has powers to vary the frequency of payments, but this would be time limited. It also says that the Department for Work and Pensions will try to identify claimants with, for instance, mental health or addiction problems who might not manage monthly payments, but suggests that help will be provided for only a limited period. The Government seem to think that a drug addict will somehow be able to learn how to budget properly after a couple of months. The essential problem is that getting a whole month’s money in their hand at once might be too tempting. I do not think that what the Government describe as “transition to monthly payments” after

“getting help with monthly budgeting”

is going to work in practice. Will the Minister clarify that?

Universal Credit

Debate between Jane Ellison and Anne Begg

Thursday 22nd November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dame Anne Begg]

As we say in the report, it will not be a problem for the majority of people, but it will be for some. We must remember that the people who will get universal credit are not just run-of-the-mill out-of-work claimants; some will have very severe disabilities because employment and support allowance is part of the new system. Some people will have quite profound barriers to accessing benefits of any kind on the internet. We hope that they will have help, but it would be useful for the Government to spell out in more detail exactly how that help will be accessed.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

I am delighted to have joined the Select Committee, albeit after the evidence for this report was taken. When the Committee reviewed the draft report, we discussed the issue that many of those who may struggle are the very people who struggle at the moment. It is important that we do not suggest that universal credit will be the source of the problem, because some of the same people struggle now. As my hon. Friend the Member for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills) said, there are opportunities in going digital such as having translation online and different ways of presenting information. A mass of paper is often more confusing.

[Dame Anne Begg]

Indeed, but a large number of our witnesses said that there are people who are managing in the present system who will not necessarily manage under the new system. Somebody who is struggling at the moment with a paper form will almost definitely struggle with an online form, but there are people who can manage a paper form who will not be able to manage an online form.

As housing benefit will go not to the landlord but to the individual, there are other groups that the current system supports who might have difficulties managing under universal credit.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dame Anne Begg]

Ministers’ responses suggest that the smartphone technology may be some way off. There are issues with the security of the data. We have had some assurances from the Government on that. This is such a big reform that we could not, in our short inquiry, look in detail at all of these matters and their implications. That is the challenge for the Government.

On the implementation timetable, the Government have made great play of saying that there will not be a big-bang effect, because universal credit will not come in for everybody on one day, but will have a slow roll-out. In the pathfinders that will operate from next April, it will be the easy claimants that are seen to first, such as single people who are on jobseeker’s allowance. However, people’s circumstances change, so it is imperative that the Government can foresee how universal credit will work in all circumstances for it to work even in the first cases. It will be no comfort to a claimant who receives no benefit in 2013 because there are failures in the system or because it cannot cope with their change of circumstances for the Government to say that the problems will be sorted out by 2017. For each family, there will effectively be a big bang when they make a new claim or when they move on to universal credit. We are hopeful that the Government are alert to those concerns.

[Jane Ellison]

While there is cautious hope that the IT systems will work, the report acknowledges that if they do work, particularly the real-time information element, it will alleviate many of the problems that we see in our surgeries, such as when people forget to report changes in their circumstances and end up with enormous arrears. That is a particular problem with tax credits. There is therefore the potential to solve one of the biggest problems that affects many of our constituencies.

[Dame Anne Begg]

As the hon. Lady said, that is all dependent on the IT. A lot of what we are talking about is dependent on the IT. That brings me on to my next point.

We were not persuaded by the assurances from HMRC that everything would be fine. We were concerned that there appeared to be no proper contingency planning for where the IT does not work as expected or at all. The points that we make in the report are based on the premise that it will work. Our concerns therefore come on top of any problems that might arise because of the IT.

The report expresses concerns about the additional costs of disability. Ministers have told us that the total expenditure on disabled people as a whole will not be reduced under universal credit, but we are concerned about individual disabled people whose entitlement will be reduced. Existing claimants will obviously have transitional protection, so they will not lose out in cash terms immediately, but that protection will erode over time and will be lost if their circumstances change.

Universal Credit and Welfare Reform

Debate between Jane Ellison and Anne Begg

Tuesday 11th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dame Anne Begg]

We should also bear in mind the debt that those people will incur in the meantime, and the fact that, even when the money has been paid, it will be difficult for them to get back on to an even keel.

I know that the Government will not want to plan for failure, but, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley)—who has now left the Chamber—they need to have a contingency plan in case the worst happens, or, indeed, the system proves to be susceptible to large-scale fraud. I hope that the worst does not happen, but, given the Government’s record of IT failures, the possibility must have crossed Ministers’ minds. It is not enough to say that the tax credit IT disaster was the Treasury’s fault, as the Treasury is involved in universal credit with real-time information, which is not being developed on the “agile” system by which the Secretary of State sets so much store.

I must admit that—apart from the disastrous Child Support Agency—the DWP has a better reputation than most for delivering new IT systems, although that is not saying much. However, all its previous systems have been delivered over a much longer time scale, with much more testing, than will be the case with universal credit.

The Government say that they have learnt from the experience of the tax credit system that there will not be a “big bang”, because not everyone will come into the system on day one. However, for individual families there will be a big bang, because all their benefit, or income, will be put at risk if anything does go wrong.

Let me return to the subject of those who will not be able to manage the new system. Let us take the best-case scenario that the Government have painted today, and assume that the IT system works perfectly, with no hitches; that most people adapt to the monthly payments; that the welfare rights people and all the other organisations are given lots of money by the Government, are well trained and provide plenty of advice; and that 80% of people—or even 90%, but the Government are saying 80%—are able to access the online form and make their applications digitally. Even if all that works, there will still be people who will not manage. The success or otherwise of universal credit will depend on how well they are catered for, even if the proportion is as low as 10% or 20%. If it is only 10%, that still represents 770,000 households. More than 1 million people will probably struggle with the system, and on the basis of the Government’s own figures the number could be more than 2 million, so I hope that the Government are paying a great deal of attention to that group of people.

[Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)]

Does the hon. Lady really think that the only measure of universal credit’s success will be what may happen to the most vulnerable, about whom all of us feel understandable concern? Does she not think that an important measure of its success will be the fact that it will increase incentives to work, and will make work pay for those who want to return to the work force?

[Dame Anne Begg]

If the group about whom I have been talking cannot access the system, there is very little chance that they will be able to return to work. That is why the support is needed.