Rural Areas in Scotland: Additional Delivery Charges

Debate between Jamie Stone and Ged Killen

Tuesday 2nd July 2019 Westminster Hall

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered additional delivery charges in rural areas in Scotland.

In the time-honoured phrase, Mr Hollobone, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. This is a huge issue for my constituents and many others living in remote parts of Scotland and elsewhere in the UK. It has been around for a long time and, despite the best of intentions and sympathetic hearings in the past, it is hard for me, as a constituency MP, to see light at the end of the tunnel.

Let me set the scene, which I am sure will be familiar to hon. Members, by giving two examples. First, I will quote Mr Charles Macfarlane living in Shinness near Lairg in Sutherland, who gave written evidence to the House of Commons Select Committee on Scottish Affairs. He referred to

“the behaviour of businesses, most particularly couriers, in either refusing to deliver to the Highlands and Islands, or else doing so charging rates so grossly inflated as to be completely unrealistic.”

He gave two examples. The first was that delivery for an eBay item costing £10 would cost £4.80 if delivery was in the UK, but when the business hears that it is for the postcode IV27 in Sutherland, the cost goes up to £15.47. Mr Macfarlane also quoted, rather charmingly, the cost of four chair castors being delivered. The cost was £11.41 to buy the four chair castors, and the cost of UK delivery was £6, but when the business heard that it was to the highlands of Scotland, the cost went up to £15. As Mr Macfarlane says,

“click ‘Buy’ on a product on the web, put in a Highland postcode, and at a guess about 75% of the time a significant delivery surcharge will be applied, very often even when the product was advertised as ‘free UK delivery’…Then, to add injury to insult, the overcharged service from such couriers is slow and unreliable—often two or three times slower than sending it by second class post, and during this time the product may have been jolting around the Highlands in a van for up to a week before finally being delivered—I’ve had a computer hard drive be Dead On Arrival as a result, and had to wait a further time for it to be returned and replaced.”

Considering the number of emails and letters that I have received about this issue since being elected as an MP, I could fill up the entirety of my allotted time quoting, but I shall give just one more example, which particularly stands out to me. A constituent has written to me about ordering a sheet of perspex from a London company. My constituent says:

“They wanted £16 for delivery, until I told them the postcode, when the charge was revised to £212.”

That absolutely stopped me in my tracks.

[Ged Killen (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this important debate. I know that this issue affects his constituency more than that of most of us here. The Scottish Affairs Committee looked at the issue in, I think, December 2017 and we found lots of examples of just what he has been referring to, including people placing orders and then being contacted after the fact, when the order had already been accepted, to be asked to pay an exorbitant delivery charge. Do we not have to address the issue so that when people go online to buy a product, the delivery charge is there for all to see, and the website does not say “Free mainland delivery” if that is not the case?

[Jamie Stone]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. I want to take this opportunity to thank all hon. Members from both sides of the House who take this issue seriously. The fact that it is taken seriously means a lot to my constituents.

Surely, if a consumer sees delivery advertised as to the “UK”, it should be to the UK. Surely these companies are failing to realise that the highlands are every bit as much part of the UK as Wales or Yorkshire. It could be suggested that delivery to the highlands might be cheaper were the goods going only as far as Inverness, at which point the buyer could drive down to get them, but when we consider that for many of my constituents the return journey to and from Inverness is 200 miles and we think about the cost of petrol and the wear and tear on the vehicle, we see that these extra costs are most unwelcome.

I want to touch on Amazon, because there is a worrying new development. In the past, Amazon has, very honourably, had most of its retailers advertise a set rate for delivery to all parts of the UK, and it had a good reputation for that. However, Amazon has recently suggested intentions to move away from standard charges and allow marketplace sellers to surcharge for the first time. That would be seriously bad news and yet another financial burden on my constituents.

As I said at the outset, this issue has been around for a long time. Many of my constituents say to me that the charges are nothing more than a geography tax—one that they can ill afford. Living in my remote part of the UK already entails a high cost of living that simply cannot be avoided. I am sure that everyone has heard now and again that Altnaharra, in the middle of Sutherland, is the coldest place in the UK. There is, in particular, the cost of winter heating, while the cost of the distance of unavoidable transport is a burden on families, and sadly the prices in our national supermarkets are often slightly higher in my constituency than they would be in other parts of the UK. Of course, the latter point will have to wait for another day, because supermarket pricing per se is a separate issue and nothing to do with delivery charges.

The lion’s share of my contributions in this Chamber and the main Chamber during my two years in this place have been about sustaining local people in local jobs and local enterprises. As hon. Members will know only too well—and as will anyone who has studied Scottish history—depopulation has been the curse of the highlands for hundreds of years. If we want to enable people to live and prosper in the highlands, we have to ensure that the economic climate in which they live is on the same level playing field as other parts of the UK. What we know about delivery charges means that that is not at all the case. To put it simply, people on basic incomes are having to pay far more for many consumer items than their friends and relations have to in Glasgow, Birmingham or London. That is not fair and it means a stark warning for us this afternoon. I will put it this way: if this inequality is not addressed, many local people might simply decide that life to the south would be a lot easier and move away. It would be a tragedy to return to the bad old times of the past. Those empty schools are a sight that none of us wants to see again.

There is a good historical example. When the penny post was introduced in 1839, it was based on the fundamental principle that a letter or parcel would cost the same to be delivered to an address in, say, Ealing or Westminster, or Wick or Durness in Caithness and Sutherland. That is why the Post Office and the Royal Mail are so dear to our hearts and why this is as popular an institution today as it ever was. It was seen to be fair, and that was seen to be good. I put it to hon. Members that today, alas, we have moved rather far from that early 19th-century concept of what was basically a right of ordinary people.

If people read, as I am sure the hon. Member for Moray (Douglas Ross) has, today’s edition of the Aberdeen Press and Journal, they will see my erstwhile colleague and former member of the Scottish Government, Mr Richard Lochhead, talking about this issue. In particular, he mentions something called consumeradvice.scot, an initiative launched a couple of months ago. It offers free advice on delivery law and urges shoppers to report misleading practices, and it tells companies what would be best practice for them. I applaud Mr Lochhead. He speaks of “rip-off” delivery charges and I commend his words.

However, there is a hitch, and that is really why I am making this speech. The Scottish Government are indeed to be praised for grasping the issue, and so too is the Highland Council, which I am bound to mention—I was a member until two years ago. The Highland Council certainly understands the issue of delivery charges in the highlands. However, the awkward truth remains that although there is a mechanism whereby complaints are logged and best practice is suggested to retail companies, there is no power, with teeth, to change the way that the companies operate. That, for all the best intentions of the Scottish Government, the Highland Council and others, means that we are not going to get to the nub of the problem.

It is my deeply held belief that with this Government or, indeed, a future Government, we do not know what is ahead of us; we are peering into a dark glass at the moment. I think that all of us, on both sides of the Chamber of the House of Commons, would agree with that, but I do think that the Government in the future, whoever they may be, would do well to look at putting in place proper legislation to bring the system into some sort of order whereby fairness is built in for people.

I am bound to put it on the record also that members of the UK Government and this Minister herself have given me a sympathetic hearing in the past and that that is appreciated. There is food for thought here, and if we could come to a constructive dialogue about how we could put in place some sort of legislation, that would be helpful.

There is a second and final warning—I think I have taken up my allotted time. If we fail to tackle this issue, which makes my constituents and many others living in remote parts of Scotland and elsewhere in the UK slightly second-class citizens, we will be failing them. There is an example from history. In the 1960s, the then Labour Government recognised the needs of the highlands and islands, recognised that the highlands and islands, in the phrase of the time, were on the UK’s conscience, and took the bold step of establishing the Highlands and Islands Development Board. That altruistic move brought great good to the highlands and islands. It was very much to the credit of that Government. I very much hope that a similar generosity of spirit and attention will be taken up by the leaders of our nation today and tomorrow. We have waited a very long time for real action. If something can be done and serious consideration given to this issue, on a personal level that would mean a great deal to my constituents.

Defence Industry: Scotland

Debate between Jamie Stone and Ged Killen

Tuesday 30th April 2019 Westminster Hall

[Ged Killen]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman. I will touch on that point later in my remarks.

Although we must continue to support shipbuilding, the UK and Scottish Governments must focus on diversifying and deepening the defence industry in Scotland to ensure that there will always be a base for the high-skill and high-value roles associated with the industry—that is eminently achievable. Scotland is well placed to be a home for a variety of new industries. With strong universities and a history of manufacturing and design excellence, we are ideally placed to take advantage of the large demands of the UK’s defence. This debate gives Members the opportunity to discuss future high-growth areas and draw attention to the advantages of increasing diversity in the defence industry. For my part, I will touch on two high-growth areas: space and land vehicles.

Glasgow in particular has become a pioneering centre for the deployment of microsatellites, producing more satellites than any other city outside the United States. As future defence concerns rely increasingly on the gathering and analysis of information, significant space assets will be vital to the day-to-day operations of the armed forces in both military and non-military operations.

The space sector has huge potential for future growth. Year-on-year growth in the sector has been five times greater than in the wider economy since 1999, and the sector has tripled in value since 2000. Each new job in the space sector adds £140,000 of added value per employee, and the overall sector receives 36% of turnover from exports.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

The high-quality satellites that are built in Glasgow are superb, and will be launched from my part of the world. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that Britain has a great business opportunity to build a lot of satellites for allied countries for their own defence, and that if we get going now, we can steal on a march on the world?

[Ged Killen]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. As a satellite hub, companies in Glasgow have produced huge volumes of satellites. Two companies, Alba Orbital and Spire Global, have between them put around 100 satellites in orbit, and Spire Global makes one new satellite per week. The recent go-ahead for the spaceport in Sutherland, as well as Glasgow’s growing microsatellite industry, perfectly places Scotland to take advantage of new investment and infrastructure.

Investment from the MOD will be a major factor in the successful development of space and satellite technologies. Any investment will naturally lead to a build-up of skills and will spill over into the civilian sector. I would therefore be grateful if the Minister indicated the role that the upcoming strategic defence and security review will have in supporting the development and expansion of the space industry in Scotland, and what representations he will make to ensure that that vital high-growth sector is not overlooked. The industry is highly competitive and, as the hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) said, it is vital that the UK takes a lead.

ATM Closures

Debate between Jamie Stone and Ged Killen

Tuesday 4th December 2018 Westminster Hall

[Ged Killen]

My hon. Friend anticipates my next point. If an ATM is removed, it costs between £7,000 and £10,000 to reinstall. That high capital investment means that, once closed, an ATM is difficult to replace, due to concerns that the investment may not pay off.

LINK sought to reassure the Payment Systems Regulator that the spread of free-to-use ATMs would not be damaged, because it would use its financial inclusion programme to protect ATMs in areas where there was not another free-to-use machine within 1 km. However, although it is well-intentioned and well funded, that programme relies on communities or operators reporting vulnerable ATMs to LINK and nominating them for extra funding, which, as my hon. Friend alluded to, they do not have to do.

The problem is that the existence of the financial inclusion programme is not well communicated, and there is concern that take-up has been poor. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the process for accessing the programme is not well known or straightforward, meaning that communities, operators and councils are often delayed in applying for funding.

I spoke recently to Tesco about its network of more than 4,000 ATMs. As I am sure Members know, many of those ATMs are in groups of two or three outside stores. Tesco told me that in some cases, those two ATMs are the last two in the town, but neither falls under LINK’s financial inclusion programme because both are right beside another free-to-use ATM.

As a consequence of the poor deployment of the financial inclusion programme, more than 100 ATMs with “protected” status have closed. We see examples of the programme failing in Scotland. Just outside Edinburgh, in the EH18 postcode, the nearest free-to-use machine is now 1.3 km away. In the PH24 postcode in the Cairngorms, the nearest machine is 6.6 km away. In TD10 in the Scottish Borders, some consumers must travel 10.9 km to withdraw their cash without charge.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

I am extremely glad that the hon. Gentleman is making an issue of the distance between ATMs. My constituency is vast and remote, and we have a thin scattering of ATMs. There is a threat of closure. I have a map here. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the distance between some of those ATMs is more than 10 km. If any one of them closed, that would be severely detrimental to my constituency.

[Ged Killen]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point. He came along to an event I held in conjunction with Which? where that information was available to Members from across the House. Many Members were surprised to learn just how far apart ATMs are in their constituencies, and how vulnerable each of those areas would be if something happened to one of those machines.

The 1 km rule just is not working. Even if it were, things can go wrong quickly when one of the last remaining machines develops a fault or runs out of cash. I stopped off in Ballantrae in South Ayrshire over the summer recess, which seems a long time ago now. When I went to use the ATM, I discovered it was out of service. There is a post office counter in the local shop—we would need an entirely separate debate to talk about the pressure post offices are under to try to meet the gap in services created by the banks—but when I went into the shop to inquire, I discovered that the next-nearest ATM is more than 20 km away, or almost 13 miles in old money.

The other issue is that it is difficult to take account of local circumstances in applying the 1 km rule. In Cambuslang in my constituency, both free-to-use ATMs at either end of the main street are—excluding the other—within 1 km of another ATM, but those alternative ATMs would be not just inconvenient but very difficult to get to for anyone who experiences mobility issues. The closure of either ATM on the main street would have a massive impact on the small businesses in that area, which are already really feeling the pressure.

Male Suicide

Debate between Jamie Stone and Ged Killen

Wednesday 13th December 2017 Westminster Hall

[Ged Killen]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right and I hope that the Minister will touch on that. I note that suicide is treated as a health matter.

[Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)]

The hon. Gentleman is quite correct to raise this hugely important subject. Sometimes, suicide is not any respecter of wealth. A much-loved local general practitioner in my constituency committed suicide, and there is a very moving memorial to him in my home town of Tain. The hon. Gentleman mentioned health, but does he feel that the education system might have a useful role in getting men to talk from an early age?

[Ged Killen]

I absolutely agree. I keep making the point that there are many different factors that influence suicidal behaviour, but certainly, if we can take the opportunity as early as possible in school, or even before, to look at mental health in general, we will go a long way in tackling the issue across the board.

Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland pursue their own suicide prevention strategies, since it is a devolved matter, in line with devolution of health policy. This debate is important to raise awareness of male suicide. I hope that the Minister will talk about what the Government are doing to prevent suicide, particularly on the issues I have touched on, including inequality and perceptions of masculinity.

If those watching this debate—particularly men who are watching—take one thing away, I hope that it is that as we approach what, for many people, can be a difficult time of year—for many others it is a very happy time—and as we battle the elements to pick up last-minute gifts, we please keep in mind those who might be fighting battles with their mental health. There are some things that money cannot buy, so for many of those people, some company and a chat might be all it takes to save their lives.

I ask the Minister to tell us of any initial evidence or representations that she has received regarding the roll-out of universal credit and the increased risk of suicidal behaviour associated with that. What consideration has her Department given to equalising the maximum limit of eight days to register a death, as is the case in Scotland? That has been called for by the Samaritans, to improve the reporting of suicide. What assessments has her Department made of the misclassification of suicides by coroners and the effects that that may have on official statistics? Could she update us on the Government’s strategies for tackling suicide among men in deprived areas?