Artistic Remuneration for Online Content

Debate between James Gray and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Wednesday 6th July 2016 Westminster Hall

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

I call Kelvin Hopkins.

[Mr Vaizey]

Hear, hear.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Vaizey]

It is invidious of me to single out individual contributions, but I particularly welcome the contribution of the hon. Member for Bristol West. I did not get the chance to have debates with her while she was briefly the Opposition culture spokesman, but I thank her for her kind remarks about me in one of her speeches when she held that role. In that speech she showed what a huge contribution she would have made to debates on culture as a Front-Bench spokesman, and definitely will make as a Member of this House.

I do not want to be snarky, but I noticed that the spokesman for the official Opposition spoke for around four minutes, whereas the Scottish National party spokesman spoke for 15 minutes. Perhaps we are seeing the shifting sands in the SNP campaign to become the official Opposition, although sometimes brevity is the soul of wit. Before I am ruled out of order, Mr Gray—

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

You are close.

[Mr Vaizey]

Let me get on to the subject in hand.

This is an important debate about a very successful industry. It is important for us to recall just how successful the British music industry is. For example, in 2015, one in six albums purchased around the globe were by British artists. We are the second-largest source of repertoire in the US and one of the biggest music markets in the world, alongside the US, Japan and Germany. Last year, Adele once again released the world’s best-selling album. Interestingly, that was the eighth time in 11 years that the global bestseller has come from the UK. Indeed, five of the world’s top 10 best-selling albums in 2015 were by British artists.

As hon. Members noted during the debate—particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome, who took us right back to the beginning of music streaming—the digital technology revolution in consumer behaviour, which is disrupting almost everything at varying speeds, has of course disrupted the traditional model for distributing music. In the decade or so that I have covered this brief, both as an Opposition spokesman and as a Minister, I have seen that change take place. Indeed, when I first became a Minister, we inherited the last Labour Government’s proposals to tackle piracy, which involved sending notices to individuals who were breaching copyright. At the time, I was sceptical about how effective that would be.

I do not want to prejudge matters, but I think the strategy we adopted has, to a certain extent, been successful. There has to be a combination of carrot and stick. We were successful—this is actually thanks to the music industry—in using existing fraud legislation in the courts to ensure that the most egregious pirate sites were blocked. Interestingly, because that was existing legislation, it did not provoke the kind of controversy that surrounds almost any attempt to “regulate the internet”. When such a measure was proposed in the United States, it resulted in a lively campaign, with people claiming that it would mean censoring the internet. Why anyone would accuse people who want to take down illegal content of censoring the internet is beyond me, but people somehow feel it is a legitimate point to make.

Alongside using legislation to block websites, the carrot, as it were, has been the rise of legal music services. I was particularly pleased to see the report issued yesterday by the Intellectual Property Office, which showed that the establishment of well-known music streaming services such as Spotify has helped to shift more people towards using legal sites. It is clear from reading the IPO report that we are not nearly out of the woods yet in terms of illegal downloading and listening, with some 7 million people in the UK apparently still accessing illegal content, but it is good that music streaming services have become more mainstream, even to the extent that I now use such a service. Some progress has been made.

Before Baroness Lucy Neville-Rolfe took over the intellectual property portfolio with such enthusiasm, I regularly held round-tables with Google and many others in the industry to discuss how they would help reduce access to illegal sites, with particular attention paid to searches that threw up such sites. I am pleased to say that the Minister in the other House has continued those round-tables. I have a huge degree of sympathy with those who say that Google could and should do more. Indeed, when it came to images of child sexual abuse, we were able to work with Google to ensure that something like 130,000 different search terms would result in a blank search return, so it is clear that Google can do work on its algorithm.

The Google argument is twofold. First, an image of child sexual abuse is clearly illegal and criminal, so Google feels it can act without the intervention of the courts. Secondly, Google likes to say that for material that infringes copyright there can sometimes be a grey area. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that it can do more. It has claimed that it has changed its algorithm, but any of us who go on Google every so often and type in the name of an artist to see what emerges will still see a list of illegal content websites coming up in the results. Google does work with some of the trade associations to ensure that links to illegal sites are taken down. As the hon. Member for Bristol West pointed out, the debate is shifting and Google is starting to take a more proactive attitude on such issues, in partnership with the music industry and artists.

We have also worked with the advertising industry. People put up websites with illegal content not as an act of altruism—if one can call it that when they are stealing somebody else’s property and giving it away—but to make money. We should not forget that. One way the people who run such sites make money is by having advertising on their websites, so we have worked closely with the UK advertising industry to ensure that legitimate advertisers do not see their advertising put on such websites. We lead the world in taking such action.

Before I address some of the substantial issues that have been raised, I should mention the Digital Economy Bill, which recognises the importance of tackling online infringement. We have extended the penalties for online infringement to match the penalties for physical infringement, as the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire mentioned, and the Bill will give us a chance to debate many of these issues again. I look forward to some of the brilliant contributions we have heard today being echoed in that debate. In congratulating hon. Members on their contributions earlier, I should have said how impressed I am by how many active musicians there currently are in the House.

On the issue of platforms, when we talk about safe harbour we are referring to the situation that has traditionally existed for the past 15 years. Intermediaries such as YouTube claim that they are passive recipients of content and that it is not necessarily their responsibility to police that content, although they claim that they do so voluntarily but do not have the resources to ensure that such content is not online. They claim simply to be a platform on which people can put their content.

As the hon. Member for Cardiff West said, the safe harbour legislation was introduced to encourage innovation. In many respects, it has been successful. When we debate these issues and look at the negatives, we should also remember the positives. A lot of platforms, and indeed the internet as a whole, have given an extraordinary opportunity to many artists who would potentially have remained undiscovered without them. Before the existence of the internet such artists had only one door to a successful career in the music industry, which was through the record labels. The internet has widened opportunities for artists as well as causing them considerable problems.

Obviously, what sits behind the idea of safe harbour is the e-commerce directive, but that is now quite legitimately a subject for debate, and it is perfectly appropriate for rights holders to argue that the hosting defence is being abused to allow copyright-infringing content to be hosted indiscriminately without their being remunerated. That is why the hosting defence creates a value gap, as it benefits intermediaries without compensating rights holders. The hosting defence also leads to a mismatch in negotiations, giving the whip hand to intermediaries rather than to artists themselves. There are also concerns about the different types of streaming business models, and about whether they provide the correct levels of remuneration to rights holders.

As a Government, we believe that businesses must act in a socially responsible manner. That applies to platforms, which should co-operate in the removal of copyright-infringing material without harming freedom of expression. However, as I said earlier, we must also recognise the role that platforms play in driving innovation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr James Gray (in the Chair)]

I call the Minister to speak with reference to the subject under debate.

[Mr Vaizey]

I am sorry if I gave that impression; that was not the point I was trying to make at all. The point I was trying to make was that countries such as France and Germany clearly have very strong views on the issue, and their voices are heard. The situation pre-Brexit was that the UK, France and Germany had slightly different positions on some of these issues but were all influential voices, and I was engaging quite closely with both the French Government and the German Government about their attitude, as well as with the Commission.

It is my intention, particularly as we remain a member of the European Union for the foreseeable future, that the British voice—the voice of British artists and the voice of the British music industry—is heard in future negotiations. At the moment, however, we are at a relatively early stage when it comes to formulating principles and identifying issues.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Gray and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Thursday 18th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

When will we get Labour councils that, instead of keeping money for their back offices, support money for the arts? When will we get Labour spokesmen in this House condemning Labour councils that cut the arts budget?

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

T8. Does the Secretary of State agree that if one believes that the highest of British culture can be found in military music and pageantry, in the architecture of Sir Christopher Wren—about whom it was famously said “Si monumentum requiris, circumspice”—and in the incomparable English of the King James version of the Bible, no finer example could be found than yesterday’s magnificent funeral for the late and great Margaret Thatcher?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Gray and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Thursday 28th April 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vaizey]

The hon. Lady makes an extremely important point. People access internet services in the library, and I hope that local authorities take that into account when they consider changes to public library services. Of course, UK Online centres and many other community services also provide access to the internet.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Is the Minister aware that prudent, Conservative-controlled councils such as Wiltshire county council—my council—are, far from cutting library services in these difficult times, expanding them, and expanding the hours for which libraries are open?

[Mr Vaizey]

I am aware of Wiltshire county council’s effective stewardship of its library services, and indeed of its ambitious plans for broadband, if I may combine the two points made by the hon. Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue). Local authorities of every political persuasion up and down the country are keeping their libraries open, and understand what an effective public library service can bring to their community.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Gray and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Thursday 3rd March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vaizey]

I certainly believe that duct access is part of the solution. Not only are we investing £530 million in the lifetime of this Parliament, but, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman will agree, deregulation—in the sense of removing barriers to investment—is a very important part of the strategy as well.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

Removing barriers in the way that the Minister describes is important, but, with the roll-out of superfast broadband, does he not agree that, although urban, city and suburban areas will be fine, the real risk is that really remote rural areas, such as those throughout Wiltshire, will take an awfully long time to be connected? Will he give us his assurance today that he will pay particular attention to rural areas such as mine in the roll-out of superfast broadband?

[Mr Vaizey]

I certainly will. In fact, I bumped into the chief executive of Wiltshire county council only this week and heard some of its exciting proposals to ensure that superfast broadband goes to all rural areas of Wiltshire.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between James Gray and Lord Vaizey of Didcot

Monday 29th November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Vaizey]

That is a matter for the Treasury.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.