Investigatory Powers (Amendment) Bill [Lords]

Debate between James Cleverly and Kevan Jones

2nd reading
Monday 19th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[James Cleverly]

We looked at that. There is a balance to be struck, and actually the bulk of those Secretaries of State to whom the function could be delegated in those two exceptional circumstances do have warranting powers—I think the Secretary of State for Defence is the only one who does not. My right hon. Friend’s point is a fair one, but the scope of the Bill is not much greater than that.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

As a member of the ISC, I welcome the Government’s acceptance of our recommendation. However, I would like to understand why they are not accepting our other, simple proposal: that when a delegation takes place, the Prime Minister would be informed about that afterwards.

[James Cleverly]

I think it is inconceivable that the Prime Minister of the day would not be informed of the use of a delegated authority.

[Mr Jones]

It is not about the Prime Minister not being informed about the delegation; it is about the Prime Minister looking at the case afterwards—they would not be second-guessing it, obviously, because it would already have been agreed. We suggested that, as a matter of course, the Prime Minister should be informed afterwards of the contents of that warrant. For some reason, the Government are resisting that. I cannot understand why.

[James Cleverly]

I understood the point that the right hon. Gentleman was making—perhaps my answer was not clear—but I suggest that it is inconceivable that the Prime Minister would not routinely be informed of the exercise of this power. Ultimately, that is a level of granularity that would add complexity to the Bill without utility. But, as I have said, through the passage of the Bill thus far, we have listened carefully to the Committee’s suggestions, and although we may not always agree, I can reassure him, other members of the Committee and Members of the House that we will continue to act in listening mode in relation to the Committee’s suggestions.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cleverly]

My right hon. and learned Friend—and immediate predecessor—makes incredibly important points. Digital technology and online technology have been a liberator in so many ways, but, sadly, as has been the case with technology throughout time, it has also been used by those who would do people harm. Indeed, she mentioned in particular the harm done to children. We take that incredibly seriously. We value the important role of investigatory powers and will continue to work with technology companies—both those well established at the moment and those of the future—to maintain the balance between privacy and security, as we have always done, and ensure that these technology platforms do not provide a hiding place for terrorists, for serious criminals and those people taking part in child sexual exploitation.

The three types of notices under the existing IPA are data retention notices, technical capability notices and national security notices. Those notices must be both necessary and proportionate, and they are of course subject to the double lock. The Bill does not introduce any new powers for the acquisition of data. The changes are about ensuring that the system is up to date and remains robust. The Bill will create a notification notice allowing the Secretary of State to place specific companies under an obligation to inform him or her of proposed changes to their telecommunications services or systems that could have an impact on lawful access. This is not a blanket obligation, and it will be used only where necessary and proportionate, and then only on a case-by-case basis.

The notice does not give the Secretary of State any powers to veto or intervene in the roll-out of a product or services. It is intended to ensure that there is sufficient time for appropriate consideration of the operational impact of the proposed changes, and potentially for discussions with the company in question about them. The public, rightly, would want their representatives to know in advance if companies were proposing to do something that would put public safety at risk, and responsible companies will work with Governments to avoid endangering people, who are of course also their customers.

The Bill will also amend the IPA to require the company to ensure that existing lawful access is maintained. That means the company cannot legally take any action that would negatively affect the level of lawful access for our operational partners during the review period. In the other place, the Government tabled an amendment to allow a timeline for review of a notice to be specified in regulations. We also gave the judicial commissioner further powers for managing the review process. Taken together, they ensure that companies are clear on the length of time that a review can take, which reduces uncertainty for their business as well as providing greater clarity for the review process. In the other place, my noble colleague Lord Sharpe of Epsom also committed to a full public consultation before amending the existing regulations on the review of notices, and laying new regulations relating to the notification notices.

The Bill also clarifies the definition of a telecommun-ications operator, to make it clear that companies with complex corporate structures that provide or control telecommunications services and systems in the UK fall within the remit of the IPA. These changes do not directly relate to any particular technology, including end-to-end encryption, but are designed to ensure that companies are not able to unilaterally make design changes that compromise exceptional lawful access.

The Bill makes changes to the powers of public authorities to acquire communications data. Section 11 of the IPA made it an offence for a relevant person in a relevant public authority to knowingly or recklessly obtain communications data from a telecoms operator or a postal operator without lawful authority. The Bill will set out examples of the acquisition routes that amount to lawful authority outside the IPA, giving greater clarity to public authorities that they are not inadvertently committing an offence. Further targeted amendments will ensure that public sector organisations are not unintentionally prevented or discouraged from sharing data. Further changes will allow bodies with regulatory functions to acquire communications data.

The Bill also creates a new condition for the use of internet connection records—ICRs—by the intelligence services and the National Crime Agency. The IPA currently requires certain thresholds to be met on the known element of an investigation, such as exactly when a website has been accessed. That limits the ability of operational partners to use the ICRs to detect previously unknown criminals, terrorists or state threat actors who are acting online. The proposed measure will allow greater detection of high-impact offenders by removing the requirement to unequivocally know a specific time or times of access and service in use, and instead will allow these factors to be specified within the application.

[Mr Jones]

I understand the use of the measure for the security services, but the Bill broadens the scope of how many people could be dragged into it. There is no judicial oversight of the Security Service or whoever is using it. The Bill states that the measure is for national security and economic wellbeing—that is a catch-all for quite a lot of things. Although the intent is right, there need to be some safeguards to prevent innocent people being dragged into that potentially broad measure.

[James Cleverly]

I understand the right hon. Gentleman’s point. Innocent people’s data is often acquired in dataset capture, and it is always deleted. Economic wellbeing merely reflects the language that is used in other parts, for consistency across our various strands of work.

[Mr Jones]

I thought we were here today to scrutinise the Bill. It should not be a chore for the Home Secretary to be asked questions. The definition of wellbeing could be quite broad. I understand the meaning of national security, as I think he does, and the House, but wellbeing could have quite a broad definition and I am not convinced that I have seen what it is. I am not sure that consistency with other legislation is a great argument for including it in this Bill.

[James Cleverly]

The simple truth of the matter is that I disagree. In legislation of this nature, maintaining consistency of language with previous relevant legislation, including the Intelligence Services Act 1994, is incredibly important to clarity of intent. I recognise that the right hon. Gentleman has given thought to this, and we do not disregard his point, but we have thought through the importance of consistency of language, which is why we have maintained it.

[James Cleverly]

The hon. Lady makes an important point, but the powers could be applied to any bulk dataset collection, of which she knows there are many across Government. Provisions are in place to ensure that innocent people’s data is not held but deleted, and that our security services and other organisations that will utilise these powers always do so carefully and cautiously. There are relevant safeguards in place, as I have made reference to—the Investigatory Powers Commissioner and the tribunal—if there is wrongdoing. The proposals are put forward for a very specific reason. The Government have given thought to mission creep and broader expansion, and we feel that this is a modest extension that will give significantly greater protection to the British people.

[Mr Jones]

As my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Dame Angela Eagle) just said, we need to give confidence to the public that what we are rightly doing to protect ourselves has that level of security in it. There is no judicial oversight of internet connection records. If we are to give these powers to the Security Service—which I approve of—we should be able to say to the public that they are proportionate and that there is an independent process to ensure that they cannot be abused. Surely, judicial oversight throughout should be important.

[James Cleverly]

The right hon. Gentleman specifically spoke about judicial oversight, but there is oversight—

[Mr Jones]

There isn’t.

[James Cleverly]

There is oversight by the Secretary of State through the warrant process, and oversight of the whole process by the Investigatory Powers Commissioner. Through the Committee on which the right hon. Gentleman sits, there is oversight of the Secretary of State’s function.

[Mr Jones]

I agree, and I support that oversight, even though this Government have not made our job on the ISC easy. Unless I am missing something, there is no judicial oversight of internet connection records in the Bill. If we want to give people confidence, that backstop of judicial oversight should be important.

[James Cleverly]

As I said, I noticed that the right hon. Gentleman specifically said that there is no judicial oversight—

[Mr Jones]

There isn’t.

[James Cleverly]

I am not disagreeing, but there is oversight. The Committee on which the right hon. Gentleman sits is part of that oversight process.

Integrated Review Refresh

Debate between James Cleverly and Kevan Jones

Monday 13th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[James Cleverly]

We committed to 2.5% of GDP as a sustainable baseline. We announced the additional £5 billion to address the immediate impact of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. As I said, that is on top of the £20 billion uplift announced in 2020 and the over half a billion pounds of new investment announced last year. We will continue to work with our international allies to ensure our collective defence posture is one that genuinely deters aggression against NATO and its member states. We have been successful in doing that, but we will, as this document has done, assess the likely and possible threats and make sure that our defence posture aligns with them.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

Having ambition and slogans such as “global Britain” are fine, but without resources behind them they are pretty meaningless. Between 2010 and 2021, the Government cut the defence budget by 16%. A £5 billion increase in the defence budget was announced today—the Prime Minister is trumpeting it all over social media—but the Defence Secretary told the Defence Committee, on which I sit, that he needed 11% just to stand still. It is interesting that he is not here to defend it. Can I ask about the £5 billion? Is the £3 billion for the nuclear deterrent new money or part of the existing £10 billion already put aside for the deterrent? If that leaves £2 billion additional expenditure, that is a long way from the Defence Secretary’s claim that we need 11% just to stand still.

[James Cleverly]

The Secretary of State for Defence was just at the Dispatch Box welcoming the money.

[Mr Jones]

Where is he now?

[James Cleverly]

He has gone to Japan, with which we have recently signed a defence agreement for the next generation of fighter aircraft. The slightly childish and raucous calls from the Opposition Benches would have more impact if it were not for the fact that on the Government Benches we are getting on with building those international defence relationships that will keep us, our neighbours and our friends right across the globe safe.

Ukraine

Debate between James Cleverly and Kevan Jones

Monday 31st October 2022 Commons Chamber

[James Cleverly]

I am sure that my hon. Friend will be unsurprised to hear that we do not discuss future sanctions designations, but the House and my Department will have heard the name he has mentioned and the circumstances in which that sanction might be considered.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I thank the Foreign Secretary for his statement. He mentioned the NLAW—the next-generation light anti-tank weapon—which has been tremendously effective in Ukraine. However, it is also a fact that we have not yet put in a contract for its renewal not only in the stocks of the UK Army but for any future use in Ukraine. Why is that, and when will the contract be signed?

[James Cleverly]

My understanding is that we have given letters of comfort to the NLAW supply chain to stimulate future production. We will, of course, always take action to ensure not only that we are able to support Ukraine in the defence of its homeland but that we do so without detriment to our ability to defend ourselves.

Sanctions

Debate between James Cleverly and Kevan Jones

Tuesday 22nd February 2022 Commons Chamber

[James Cleverly]

I will rush on, because I was excessively generous earlier. The question was asked: will these sanctions be escalated only in response to further aggression? I can assure the House that these sanctions will be ratcheted up because of what has already happened, and not just in response to what might happen in the future. Our intention is to prevent even further invasion of Ukraine, to have those troops who are in Ukraine removed, and then to have them return to their home barracks once they are back in Russia. That is our ultimate aim, and the ratchet effect will be done to pursue that as a strategic aim.

There have been questions about asset flight. We are very conscious of this, and that is why we are not explicitly naming people or institutions that may be subject to future sanctions. It is also why it is very important that we work hand in hand with our international allies and friends, who are just as determined as we are to address this situation.

The shadow Foreign Secretary, the right hon. Member for Tottenham (Mr Lammy), compared what we have announced today unfavourably with what our allies say they are going to announce. If I were to say that this sanctions package is as far as the Government are willing to go, that might be a legitimate criticism, but the point we have made is that, just as our friends and allies intend to go further, we intend to go further. I have given some suggestions about where that additional ratchet effect may be focused, but we reserve the right to explore whatever is necessary to dissuade further aggression and to force Vladimir Putin to withdraw the troops that have entered Ukraine.

Questions were asked about the application of this statutory instrument in the OTs. This SI does cover the OTs. Members asked whether individuals who may not be in direct managerial or ownership roles would be subject to these sanctions. This SI is worded specifically to be broad in scope. I think implicit in the question my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) asked was that it might even be too broad in scope, but I can assure the House that it was written specifically to be broad in scope so that the ownership maze often put in place to hide the beneficiary of ownership can be addressed.

There have been some questions about family members. A family member is caught within scope where they are acting for or deriving benefit from their relationship with the Russian Government. However, just being the relative of someone who may be subject to sanctions is not necessarily enough on its own. There need to be reasonable grounds, and we always act with reasonableness, although we do act with firmness.

In the debate, it has sometimes sounded as if the only Russians subjected to UK sanctions are the ones who were named by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary this morning. It is worth reminding the House that 58 entities and 186 Russian individuals are currently subject to financial sanctions under the Russia regime, including the ones designated today. There are already limitations on the activities in the UK of SberBank, VTB bank, Gazprombank and others, and as I say, we will not speculate on where future sanction designations may land.

Across the House, my right hon. and hon. Friends—including my right hon. Friend the Member for Chingford and Woodford Green (Sir Iain Duncan Smith) and my hon. Friends the Members for Isle of Wight (Bob Seely) and for Tonbridge and Malling (Tom Tugendhat)—have called on us to do more, and their message was absolutely echoed, very effectively and eloquently, by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Liam Byrne), my shadow, the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Stephen Doughty), and the hon. Members for Stirling (Alyn Smith) and for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran). I hear—the Government hear—exactly the points that they are making.

The hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones)—

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Right honourable.

[James Cleverly]

Right honourable. Exactly. It is appropriate to say that; apologies. The right hon. Member for North Durham made a point about what this framework enables us to do. This is the point we are making: this is legislation that enables us to apply sanctions very widely indeed and we will always do so in the way we believe to be most effective: that is, hand in hand with our friends and allies. We will repeat the message that the people of Ukraine have suffered enough. The aggression and intimidation must end. This will form part of our response to Vladimir Putin’s aggression. We will work towards a time when the people of Ukraine no longer live under the intimidation of Vladimir Putin, and indeed, as has been made clear by a number of Members around the House, the people of Russia can again enjoy a relationship with other countries around the world not tainted by the actions of this individual.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) Regulations 2022 (SI, 2022, No. 123), dated 10 February 2022, a copy of which was laid before this House on 10 February, be approved.

Afghanistan: FCDO Responses to Members

Debate between James Cleverly and Kevan Jones

Thursday 9th September 2021 Commons Chamber

[James Cleverly]

My hon. Friend is right that the majority of refugees from Afghanistan would be expected to find refuge, at least in the first instance, in neighbouring countries. We work extensively with those countries. We enjoy strong bilateral relations with most, particularly Pakistan, which has a long border with Afghanistan. I can assure him that we will continue to work closely with them to ensure that refugees that enter their countries are looked after.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

I join the Minister in thanking members of the armed forces and consular staff, who have worked incredibly hard. This mess is not of their making; it is that of Ministers. He claims there have been 200,000 emails, but they are not all from Members of Parliament. If that were the case, we would have each sent more than 300 emails. Is he saying to the House that our emails have no more weight than any others? Can I just raise with him the marked contrast with how other countries have dealt with this issue? I had a constituent in Afghanistan who is a British citizen. There was no answer from the Foreign Office. My office laterally thought, as her husband is a US citizen, to contact the State Department. It not only replied straight away, but got her out within 48 hours and phoned to say it had been done. There is a different way of doing it, and it is about how parliamentarians are treated.

The Defence Secretary suggested that people should now move to the borders if they want to leave. I have a family in my constituency who have the ability to get to Pakistan, but want to know what happens next. The Germans last week put in place a transit route through Uzbekistan. Where are we at with this?

[James Cleverly]

As I have said, the Foreign Secretary visited the region and spoke extensively with regional partners, including Pakistan. We will continue to explore with those neighbouring countries what means can be put in place for Afghans to come to the UK, where that is their most appropriate destination. I am glad that the right hon. Gentleman pays tribute to the officials in the Government Departments, most notably the FCDO, the Ministry of Defence and the Home Office. Many other Departments provided volunteers to reinforce our work, and I also pay tribute to them.