Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 9) Regulations 2022

James Cleverly Excerpts

Monday 6th June 2022 General Committees

[The Minister for Europe and North America (James Cleverly)]

I beg to move,

That the Committee has considered the Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 9) Regulations 2022 (SI 2022, No. 477).

It is a pleasure to serve with you in the Chair, Mrs Murray. A copy of the regulations was laid before the House on 27 April. They were tabled under the powers provided by the Sanctions and Anti-Money Laundering Act 2018 and came into effect under the made affirmative procedure. They were considered and not reported by both the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee and were approved by the House of Lords on 26 May.

In lockstep with our allies, we continue to develop the largest and most severe package of economic sanctions that Russia has ever faced. Those measures are already helping to hamper Putin’s war machine by restricting finance access, targeting Putin’s corrupt cronies and cutting them off from the international community, and paralysing the Russian military-industrial complex. The new legislation introduces trade sanctions relating to internet services and online media services. Put simply, it allows us to cut off propagandists and organisations spreading the Russian regime’s vicious lies and disinformation online.

The Russian Government are conducting an aggressive set of online information operations against Ukraine in a transparent and shameful attempt to justify their illegal war. This must be stopped. Ofcom has already removed Russia Today’s broadcast licence on the basis that it is not a fit and proper organisation to hold one. However, until the regulations entered into force, no powers existed in the UK to block access to the same disinformation being spread by way of Russia Today’s website, social media accounts and mobile applications. The statutory instrument will ensure that social media services, internet services and app stores will have to take reasonable steps to prevent UK users encountering content produced or uploaded by a person designated for those purposes. It will be for Ofcom to enforce the new legislation, and it has been given the power to impose fines on those who fail to comply.

ANO TV-Novosti, the parent organisation for Russia Today, and Rossiya Segodnya, the parent organisation for Sputnik, were designated for the purposes of these measures by my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary on 4 May 2022. These puppet organisations are demonstrably part of Russia’s global disinformation campaign, as RT’s own editor-in-chief made clear in the past when she called the network an “information weapon” of the Russian state. The organisations are propaganda arms of the Russian state—both as a consequence of their ownership and of Russian law, which prevents the war being reported objectively and truthfully.

Third parties are now required to restrict access to content pumped out by those designated organisations. That will limit their audience and blunt the effect of their Russian state message of aggression towards Ukraine. The ultimate objective is to ensure that Ukraine succeeds. The whole of the UK Government, along with our international allies—and with the support of Opposition parties—are working to ensure Ukraine’s success. Our fight against disinformation and harmful propaganda forms a key component of that. Putin’s war on Ukraine is based on a torrent of lies. Britain has helped lead the world in tackling disinformation, and the new legislation enables us to blunt Putin’s weapons of war and hit the shameless propagandists who push out Putin’s fake news and fake narratives. We will continue our co-ordinated action against Russia in partnership with our allies and encourage more and more countries to act with us. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

--- Later in debate ---

[James Cleverly]

Thank you, Mrs Murray. I was all ready to smile and silently allow the Committee to rise.

[Wayne David]

A point of order was on my lips already!

[James Cleverly]

Indeed.

Those of us who regard ourselves as veterans of these sanctions-related SI debates—a number of us are in the room—will recognise that the tone of the debate has followed something of a pattern, of which we should all be proud. That tone is one of support, but with some probing and technical questions to ensure that the Government are doing their job properly and professionally. That is absolutely right. As a Minister, I have often said that scrutiny by the House is like a trip to the dentist: we do not necessarily like it, but we know that, ultimately, it is probably for the best.

Unsurprisingly, the questions have been typically thoughtful. Some of them demanded a level of technical knowledge that I have to confess I am not armed with, but I am more than happy to ensure that Committee members are furnished with that technical detail if I fall short in explaining the situation.

The shadow Minister is right that we need to continually ensure that we are building a broad and wide coalition in standing up against Russian disinformation. We need to ensure that the countries that do stand firm are, to an extent, protected from punishment beatings, as it were. We are working internationally to help Governments, particularly those in eastern Europe, defend themselves against the Russian disinformation campaign. As he said, we have seen a pattern of attempts to undermine and destabilise democratic Governments. I have had conversations with a number of eastern European countries and their representatives here in the UK about helping them protect themselves against disinformation. It will be a constant piece of work—this is an area where we can never rest—but I assure him and others who raised the matter that it remains an area of work that we regard as very important. Actually, our work on this carries a great deal of credibility in the international community.

I will have to come back with the detail on the number of people we have in enforcement, but the shadow Minister is absolutely right to highlight that passing these regulations is important but the enforcement is key. We take that seriously. By the nature of the range of sanctions that we have applied, enforcement often falls to a number of different Departments. In this instance, a significant part of the enforcement will be triggered by Ofcom.

The shadow Minister asked what conversations we have had with the companies. DCMS, the lead technical Department on the matter, has had extensive and ongoing engagement with the relevant companies, and Ofcom has similarly been in contact with the companies and other entities since the regulations came into force, to ensure that they are as effective as possible. We want to ensure that we create an environment where the companies themselves are our allies in fighting disinformation. Of course, it is in their interests to do so, just as it is in the interests of those brave people fighting the physical war on the frontline in eastern and southern Ukraine.

The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth, and the former shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Caerphilly, both asked about proceeds—from these fines and, more generally, from asset seizures. In everything we do—this touches on the point made by the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown—we want to ensure that whatever actions we take are robust. I know that there is a tension between working as quickly as he, and I suspect everyone in this room, would want us to work and ensuring that we do not allow loopholes or inadvertently create a sanctions regime that could be struck down by lawyers paid by some of the richest individuals in the world. I get that that can be frustrating. We are working to have a robust regime operating as quickly as possible.

I am not sure whether the hon. Member for Brighton, Kemptown was in the last SI Committee that considered such measures, but I know that the hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth was: we introduced a number of remedies to deficiencies that he had spotted, because we had been moving quickly. I suspect that we will always be in a situation where Opposition Members and, indeed, some Conservative Members will be snapping at the Government’s heels. As I say, it is not always pleasant, but it is an important part of the process, and we will try to move as quickly as possible wherever we can.

The same is true with regard to ensuring that whatever asset seizure mechanism we put in place is absolutely robust. We have to understand that there is an important difference between sanctions, which typically freeze assets, and what is by its nature a more permanent deprivation of assets, where we absolutely have to ensure we are watertight in everything we do. That is true of property—houses, boats, planes and artwork—and of company assets such as these.

On the Crown dependencies and overseas territories, the UK legislates on behalf of the BVIs through Orders in Council, so we do not require any legislative process on their part. We of course stand ready to support the Crown dependencies and overseas territories in enforcing the sanctions. As I said, they are allies in this, and they want to ensure they are on the right side of history with regard to these things.

My hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil raised an important point, and I have to confess that I am not able to give him the detailed response today that he might require. Rather than give him an erroneous answer, I will ensure that I provide him with updated information, and we will put it in a format that every member of the Committee has access to so they can fully understand how this will work.

The hon. Member for Caerphilly raised collaboration, co-operation and co-ordination with the European Union. I assure him that with both the European Union and the United States, we have regular dialogue at ministerial, senior official and technical levels to ensure that, even when our sanctions responses are not identical, they ultimately seek to reinforce each other. The EU, the UK, the US and others have different legislative processes and mechanisms so it is not always possible to be absolutely on the same page at the same time, but we try to co-ordinate and converge as quickly as we can to prevent sanctioned individuals and entities from shifting and moving their assets to avoid international sanctions. That has been very effective up to this point, and I have no doubt that that will continue to be the case.

[Stephen Doughty]

This may be a more technical question, and I am happy for the Minister to come back to me on it, but during the response to the covid-19 pandemic, there was a concerted effort around the world, and indeed in this country, to deal with anti-vaxxer information and so on across a range of platforms. Can he give us some assurances that in his or DCMS’s conversations with the social media companies, they are discussing how people can report Russian disinformation if it is not, for example, branded as RT but is clearly spreading lies, and ensure that authorities know about it so that action can be taken? That is where a lot of the stuff comes through quite insidiously.

[James Cleverly]

The hon. Gentleman raises a very good point, and I will ensure that officials and Ministers at DCMS discuss that with the internet companies. That is probably one of the most effective ways of having the coverage of content—sometimes huge volumes of content—so that everyone is a moderator.

We have already imposed, in co-ordination with our partners, a very effective range of sanctions that will have lasting consequences on the Russian economy, specifically because of Putin’s actions. As I speak, 60% of Russia’s foreign currency reserves, worth an estimated £275 billion, are frozen, and our measures cutting off revenue streams are working. Russia is struggling to find buyers for its seaborne oil, which is threatening major export revenues. Working together, we will continue to have an impact on Putin and his regime and hopefully bring this abhorrent war to a swift conclusion that sees the Ukrainians successful.

I thank hon. Members for their contributions, the questions they have asked and the tone in which we have conducted this debate. I also thank them for their ongoing support not only for the sanctions before the Committee today, but for our sanctions package in general. I commend these measures to the Committee.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Committee has considered the Russia (Sanctions) (EU Exit) (Amendment) (No. 9) Regulations 2022 (SI 2022, No. 477).