Princess Royal Hospital Telford

Debate between Jackie Doyle-Price and Daniel Kawczynski

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jackie Doyle-Price)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Gray. It is also a great pleasure to respond to my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (Lucy Allan). She articulated the case on behalf of her constituents with considerable passion, and I will do my best to address some of the points she made.

My hon. Friend talked about the activities of the council with regard to this ongoing issue. I have to say, as the Conservative MP for Thurrock, which has a Labour council, that it all sounded very familiar. I am afraid that perpetrating fake news is in the DNA, and Labour does not like to have lost successive elections. I am sorry that she has had to tolerate that, but I am even more sorry that her constituents have had to.

When we discuss the future of our local health services, we want to take the community with us. Naturally our constituents get worried about change; they are always worried about the possible diminution of services. The only way we take the community with us is by having real dialogue, based on real proposals and real facts. The fact of the matter is that all the council is doing is engaging in speculation, and I personally find that deeply irresponsible. It is not the job of anybody involved in local leadership to foment fear, and I really do regret those actions. Sadly, I am afraid we cannot expect any better. I am really pleased that my hon. Friend has taken advantage of the opportunity today to make the case for her constituents and to highlight those issues. The way we will take people with us on any change in the health service is by mature discussion and reflection and by advocating on our constituents’ behalf.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

I would like to reiterate the point that my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) made. We all voted for the Bill to ensure that local communities were empowered to make these decisions. It is right and proper that local people at the coalface of providing these services are empowered to make the decisions to improve them and make them future-proof. However, in our case, it really has broken down. The most important thing the Minister can do is to work with her officials to ensure that changes are made when we cannot get an agreement in a locality, because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (Lucy Allan) said, this has continued for four years, causing a great deal of concern and instability for the hospital trust.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and will make two points in response. He is absolutely right; the whole purpose of how we structure the NHS now is that communities are empowered to make decisions. That is why it is all the more irresponsible for the council to be engaged in this speculation. The reality is that no decision will be taken on the future of services until the consultation has taken place and all those responses have been analysed. The community will have its say before any change, and anyone who suggests otherwise and is engaged in speculation really should not. Could my hon. Friend remind me of the second point he made?

[Daniel Kawczynski]

The point I wanted to make was that certain communities in the United Kingdom have come together, across parties and across the whole of the county. Northumberland, where this process has worked very well, is a case in point. Unfortunately, in areas such as ours, where a council is acting deliberately provocatively and from a political perspective, that has not come to fruition. I want the Minister to ensure that her Department takes that on board when planning for future ways to improve this process.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

It is a matter for reflection that this has been going on for four years, which generates considerable uncertainty. Clearly we should reflect on that, to ensure that the process becomes more efficient. Equally, it takes time to have those debates. I know that the particular issues under consideration here are quite difficult to grapple with. The important thing is that the local NHS is seen to be leading the debate and not allowing anyone else to fill that vacuum when there are decisions to be taken.

My hon. Friend the Member for Telford invited me to make some comments. Obviously there are limits, but perhaps I could set out the process, so that we can put in context exactly where we are now. As I mentioned, all service changes will be based on the fact that they deliver real outcomes for patients and will be taken forward in consultation with the local community. Ultimately, the most important factor is that this is what is best for the health service in the area, driven by clinical leadership. Again, it really should be the local NHS leading this debate, and not local authorities filling the vacuum.

The issues that my hon. Friend raised affect not only her and my hon. Friends the Members for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) and for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski), but also service users in Wales. As she alluded to, it has now been four years, so everyone knows that change is in the air. Until the vacuum is filled, there will continue to be uncertainty. I expect the CCG to bring forward a consultation, to have an open discussion as soon as it can. I urge everyone to participate fully in the consultation and I encourage my hon. Friend the Member for Telford to lead that debate. Where there are issues that she is concerned about, she should challenge the local NHS leadership, and where there are things that she welcomes, she should highlight them.

The proposed service changes should meet four key tests: they should have support from GP commissioners, be based on clinical evidence, demonstrate public and patient engagement, and consider patient choice. Until those four criteria can be met, no decision can be taken.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

It surprises me that the report is not in the public domain, according to what my hon. Friend has just said, if it is informing the approach that is being taken. I tend to take the view that sunlight is the best disinfectant, and if things are not done in an open and transparent way, the conditions are created for exactly the kind of speculation and scaremongering that we have been talking about. Having said that, I reiterate that the consultation has not yet started. It is very important that when the consultation does start, the CCG makes extremely clear the basis on which it is going forward with the proposals that it chooses.

I do not need to advise my hon. Friends of exactly what we are talking about. Clearly, they know more about their local healthcare situation than I do, and it is clear that local NHS leaders have to address significant challenges in bringing forward the entirety of their proposals as they affect the Royal Shrewsbury Hospital and the Princess Royal Hospital in Telford. I understand that they are 18 miles apart. In some areas of the country, that might not seem far at all, but when we are dealing with communities that have very separate identities, they could be oceans apart. That is another reason why we need to be very clear in our dialogue with those communities about why we are bringing forward the conclusions that we are.

Clearly, at a time when there is no money, things that it would be nice to have are not possible. It would be nice to duplicate services in both locations, but frankly that is not a luxury open to us at this stage in the economy, so where there is duplication of services, where we could bring them together and make a better service as a result, we should explore that. It is up to the local clinical leadership—there is a clear task and challenge for them—to demonstrate that whatever they bring forward will deliver better outcomes for patients. When it comes to winning over public hearts and minds, the public will not get away from the fact that services are being moved away from them. Automatically, there is a diminution of service in their mind, but bringing services together can often make a better service. We can see, with patient outcomes in particular circumstances, where that has been achieved. I therefore encourage the CCG to bring forward as much evidence as possible in making its case.

Of course, we all understand that whenever the consultation takes place, after four years of quite feverish speculation on some parts, people will be nervous. I encourage all my hon. Friends to continue this debate in public and with Ministers, so that we can reassure the public that we have their best interests and those of patients at heart with whatever decision is taken. As I have said, the more transparent and open the debate is, the better. Perhaps between them, my hon. Friends can lead the CCG to have those public discussions, away from the council, away from organised intimidation at public meetings, which will not lead to the best outcomes for patients at all. I have witnessed this myself. The left is very good at organising mobs at public meetings, but the last thing we want is for local clinical leaders to bring forward proposals in the best interests of serving the community and then be intimidated, by those who shout loudest, into changing their views because they are faced by a herd.

[Daniel Kawczynski]

This is a very important point for the Minister to perhaps share with the Department for Communities and Local Government and other Ministers. Of course councils have the right to challenge processes. Even though Telford Council’s leader and all his team are completely bereft of any medical credentials, they have the right to challenge, but we need to consider whether they have the right to use taxpayers’ money for political campaigns. I think that the Minister will be interested to see some of the literature that Telford Council has sent out and perhaps share it with her colleagues at the DCLG, to see whether we can do anything more to tighten up the rules on how councils spend their council money.

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. Local authorities are all a function of who leads them, and some leaders are prepared to go further than others when it comes to engaging in debate. I also observe that there is currently an inquiry by the Committee on Standards in Public Life into abuse. Perhaps it could look beyond the abuse of parliamentary candidates and consider the kind of intimidation of clinical leaders at public meetings that my hon. Friend the Member for Telford has referred to, because this is all part of the space of public debate, and it is not helping our democracy that debates are taking place in unhelpfully fevered situations. We recognise of course that emotions will run high and that people will be passionate about the issue. We live in a mature democracy; we should be able to have our debates and discussions based on mutual respect and fact, but I am afraid, from things that my hon. Friend has described, that that has perhaps been missing.

In the short time I have left, I will just say that I hope the CCG brings forward its proposals as soon as possible, because the sooner the debate gets out in the public domain, the more informed it will be.

Question put and agreed to.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Jackie Doyle-Price and Daniel Kawczynski

Tuesday 4th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Jackie Doyle-Price]

The amount of resource that is dedicated locally is a matter for clinical commissioning groups, and we continue to make sure that funding is fair. I suggest the hon. Gentleman takes that up with his CCG.

[Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)]

9. What guidance he provides to clinical commissioning groups on decision-making processes to improve healthcare provision.