Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Ian Liddell-Grainger and Rishi Sunak

Tuesday 27th April 2021 Commons Chamber

[Rishi Sunak]

The hon. Lady is confusing multiple things. She has asked me previously about circuit breakers. At the time there was a debate, appropriately, about whether a national intervention was right at a time when the epidemiology across this country was incredibly varied. That is something that the deputy chief medical officer himself spoke about at a press conference, and he said it would be inappropriate at that time to take forward national interventions. That is what I was referring to.

To go back to the shadow Chancellor’s previous comment about transparency, in fact I voluntarily published extra messages to aid the transparency of this process for people. I am fully committed to working constructively with the inquiry, both the Boardman review and the Treasury Committee inquiry. It is worth reminding the shadow Chancellor of something she herself wrote last April in The Daily Mirror:

“The ‘Coronavirus Business Interruption Loan Scheme’ seems to be stuck in the banks, and not getting to small businesses in particular, where cash flow is desperately needed.”

Well, the Government were also looking at how to get cash flow to small businesses, and I am sad and disappointed about what a conveniently short memory she has.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

I wonder whether the Chancellor would order an investigation into the management of contracts between Skanska and Somerset County Council. There is evidence emerging of lazy council practices which are costing millions and millions of pounds in overpayment. We need to get to the bottom of this, and we cannot get the local county council to do it. Will the Chancellor please not only investigate, but suggest how we as MPs can force the issue before we have a complete disaster on our hands?

[Rishi Sunak]

In my previous job as Minister for local government, I enjoyed many conversations with my hon. Friend about local government matters. He will know it is not for the Chancellor or indeed national Government to implement redress processes. There are established redress processes, which I would be happy to write to him about, so he can seek redress for his particular concerns.

Economic Update

Debate between Ian Liddell-Grainger and Rishi Sunak

Monday 11th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Rishi Sunak]

There are specific provisions in place in guidance for employers for calculating pay with respect to periods of maternity. Hopefully, those are clear, but I am very happy to look into the hon. Lady’s specific point.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con) [V]]

My right hon. Friend is aware how good Bridgwater and Taunton College is and how many apprentices it is training for Hinkley Point and many other organisations. One of the unforeseen consequences of the pandemic is that £8 million of the college’s funding goes into training those people but, unfortunately, a lot of employers are not taking on apprentices, or are making them redundant, so those young people are not getting the chance to finish their training in the skills they need to get jobs. Can we urgently examine ways to ensure that they and the colleges are empowered to train those young people and get them into the workplace as soon as possible?

[Rishi Sunak]

I am fairly certain we have already put in place a new matching services for apprentices who, sadly, are unable to complete their apprenticeship with their current employer, but I am happy to get the details and write to my hon. Friend about that. More broadly, like him, I support passionately further apprenticeships, which is why we have given companies a £2,000 bonus to take on a new apprentice and provided additional funding to both businesses and colleges to pay for the associated training.

Somerset County Council: Unitary Status

Debate between Ian Liddell-Grainger and Rishi Sunak

Tuesday 22nd May 2018 Westminster Hall

[Rishi Sunak]

My predecessors, the Secretary of State and myself have previously laid out that a unitary authority should contain at least 300,000 people or more. That figure comes from research conducted by the Department in the past. However, each proposal will be considered on its merits.

The third and final criterion is that the proposal commands local support. In particular, the structure must be proposed by one or more existing councils in the area, and there must be evidence of a good deal of local support for it.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

Will the Minister say these wonderful words: there should be a referendum?

[Rishi Sunak]

I am afraid that I cannot say those specific words; indeed, that is not the Government’s previous guidance. The criterion is that there should be evidence of a good deal of local support for the proposal, including from business, the voluntary sector, public bodies and local communities.

My hon. Friend will know from the various proposals that the Government have already considered that there have been a range of ways to demonstrate that good deal of local support. Other areas have engaged electoral and polling agencies to conduct representative polling, county and district council members—who represent people in different areas—have voted and extensive engagement exercises and consultation processes have happened. There are various mechanisms, but the key is that, at the end of the day, there must be evidence of a good deal of local support.

I will elaborate a little further on what a good deal of local support means, as opposed to the mechanism for establishing that it is there. We would like to see a good deal of local support, which we assess in the round across the whole area—from business, the voluntary sector, public bodies and local communities. We do not mean unanimous agreement from all councillors, stakeholders, councils and residents. However, we expect as much consensus from councils as possible.

My hon. Friend talked about democratic deficits, and he is right to highlight the importance of local democracy. From parish councils and all the way up, strong local democracy serves communities well and can make a difference to how people live their lives and to the area that they call home. We have seen in previous reorganisations and restructuring an increase in the incidence of parishing, revitalising that most local form of democracy. For example, in Wiltshire, Salisbury became a town council as part of that process. We are seeing similar moves towards parishing in other areas, such as Suffolk, which is currently in the process of a district merger. The Government also have powers to confer charter trustees as part of any reorganisation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rishi Sunak]

Thank you, Mr Hollobone. I was not aware of that; I appreciate the extra time.

It is important that the councils of Somerset think long and hard about how best to serve their communities and about how to deliver the public services that people rely on, whether adult social care, children’s services, strategic planning or transport. It may well be that innovation and re-organisation will help to deliver for the people of Somerset, but it is crucial to note that that decision should be taken by the people of Somerset themselves. It will not be for the Government to impose a top-down solution.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

I will be very brief; I promise I will not wind up the debate, Mr Hollobone. I am confused, because the Minister says that there must be local involvement, but also that local stakeholders must support the proposals. Most of West Somerset’s local stakeholders are not based in the county, funnily enough. Ambulance services are based in Devon, the fire brigade is based in, I think, North Somerset and the police are up in Avon. I would love to know how that will work. I ask the Minister to think this through. The most important people are the 500,000 based in the county of Somerset.

[Rishi Sunak]

My hon. Friend makes a good point, and he is absolutely right to demonstrate that local people should have their say and that their voice should be heard. However, it is also important, when these deliberations are made, that we consider effective local government as one of the criteria. In any local area, there will be institutions and stakeholders, who may or may not be based in that area, who will make a difference to the delivery of local services, and their views will form part of those deliberations.

My hon. Friend started the debate by saying something that I wholeheartedly agree with: local government matters. I take that very seriously, as I know does the Secretary of State. That is why the Government will remain committed to responding and listening to proposals that come forward from local government. We will not seek to impose our view, but where there is a desire and a thrust for more change and innovation—whether in Somerset or elsewhere—we will look to support those involved, according to the criteria I have laid out. In conclusion, I commend my hon. Friend for the continued passion he has shown in ensuring that local democracy in Somerset remains vibrant and strong.

Question put and agreed to.

Draft Somerset West and Taunton (Modification of Boundary Change Enactments) Regulations 2018 Draft Somerset West and Taunton (Local Government Changes) Order 2018

Debate between Ian Liddell-Grainger and Rishi Sunak

Wednesday 16th May 2018 General Committees

[Rishi Sunak]

It is a pleasure to have the opportunity to respond to the comments made by the hon. Member for Makerfield, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings, and my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch. I hope that I can address all the points that they raised and, of course, those of my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset, whom I fully respect for representing his constituents in the way that he sees fit.

I shall start with the misconception, which ran through comments from hon. Members on both sides of the Committee, that in some way central Government are, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset said, riding roughshod over local government. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings referred to a delicate relationship between central and local government, and I agree with him. It is important that central Government do not ride roughshod over or dictate to local government, which is why the Government have been exceptionally clear that we want to see locally-driven proposals and will consider locally-driven, locally-originated proposals against a set of criteria, which the previous Secretary of State reiterated in the House. That speaks to the very nature of what we are talking about here. I want to remind hon. Members on both sides of the Committee that this was a locally-driven process. The Government received a proposal that had been generated, researched, engaged with and consulted on by the local councils in question, both of which have consented to the making of the statutory instruments.

My hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch talked about an invitation. There was no invitation from central Government to the councils to put the proposal forward. It was entirely a result of their own work.

The hon. Member for Makerfield talked about the narrow council majority. I think it would be helpful for hon. Members to know the results of the council votes that were held in both areas. When the proposal was considered in Taunton Deane, 32 councillors were in favour and 16 against, with two abstentions. That is a majority of more than 64%. When West Somerset Council voted on the matter in December, 20 councillors were in favour and just three against, with one abstention. That is an 83% vote in favour. In aggregate, that combines to 70%. I will leave hon. Members to make up their own minds as to whether that it is a significant or a narrow majority.

Not only are local councillors in support, but the local area is too, including the county council, all public bodies, businesses, the voluntary sector and a majority of the parishes.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

I gently say to the Minister that that is not the case. I represent one of the areas, although I admit that I do not represent the other. When I talked to the local enterprise partnership, it had been asked whether it thought it was a good idea. Well, if people are asked whether they like blueberry pie, they tend to say yes. It was not given any facts; it was just asked whether it was a good idea. One of the reasons that it said so was that Hinkley Point C nuclear power station is in west Somerset. A lot of it has been predicated on that. I therefore say to the Minister that I am not sure that is correct.

[Rishi Sunak]

It is not just the local enterprise partnership. On my understanding, all businesses, voluntary organisations and public bodies that submitted formal representations were in support or not against the proposals, so I do not think what my hon. Friend says is accurate in that sense. Obviously, he is against the proposals, but my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Rebecca Pow), who represents the other area, is firmly in favour of them.

The key point is about respecting the views of local government and the local area. As I hope I have adequately demonstrated, not only did central Government not impose anything; we did not initiate anything. We responded to a proposal that was put forward and strongly supported by the local councillors and local councils involved.

We have also heard about the so-called democratic deficit and whether people of both districts would have an adequate voice in the new electoral arrangements. As hon. Members have said, that is a misperception in the minds of the constituents who wrote in about that. Again, I will give hon. Members the facts and leave them to make up their own mind. There will be a reduction in the number of councillors across the entire area from 83 to 58, but the number of electors per councillor for the new council is 1,927. To put that in context, the average for the country for two-tier district areas is 1,925. I would argue that that lies squarely in the average for the rest of England in terms of democratic accountability and representation for ordinary people. People should be assured by that.

I was asked about service delivery, the reasons for the merger and the financial savings. In the first instance, it is important to note that the merger will safeguard the existing savings that are in place between the two councils, which are in excess of £2 million. Financially, West Somerset Council is not in the best of shape. That is not my view, but the view of the council’s leadership, the statutory section 151 officer, the independent auditor and the county council. They all make the point that if West Somerset Council finds itself in further financial straits, that would jeopardise the entire shared partnership structure in place between the two councils, which generates savings and saves people money on their council tax bill. Therefore, in the first instance, the merger safeguards an existing way of working and an existing amount of savings.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

I am sorry to be so boring about this. The Minister covers a very rural area as well. He just said, “If West Somerset has a problem,” but it does not. It has balanced its books for this year, next year and the year after. It is doing well, but yet again we are being told that that is not the case.

[Rishi Sunak]

I tell my hon. Friend that that is not just my view, but the view of his own council and the statutory section 151 officer, who believes that without this merger, the future of West Somerset Council is “not viable”. It is also the view of the independent auditor in the comments they have made and of the county council. I know that my hon. Friend has corresponded with the Department over several months. We remain of the view that the opinion of all the people locally involved with the council believe that this merger will safeguard the savings and that without the merger the financial situation will be extremely difficult.

On the future relationship and service transformation, I was asked about employees. That will obviously be a matter for the new council but it is worth pointing out that the two councils already operate a relatively deep shared partnership structure and use common employees in a single area. It is unlikely that there would be significant changes but that will be a matter for them.

[Rishi Sunak]

I have not seen that number; I am not sure where that has come from.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

That has come from the councils themselves. The unions have done a lot of work on this. It is one in three jobs; that is where the savings are coming from—by getting rid of people. It is not a real saving; it is imaginary because it is necessary to get rid of people to make the saving.

--- Later in debate ---

[Rishi Sunak]

It is important to note that when we talk about savings of £3.1 million, only £0.5 million comes from the merger we are considering today. The remainder is already in place through the joint working and will be safeguarded by the merger. In terms of the incremental change, £0.5 million as a percentage of £3.1 million is relatively small. We are talking about safeguarding the existing joint working between these two councils, where there is not enormous duplication of staff, because in most instances there is already one set of staff delivering for both councils.

More broadly, the larger district council will be better at joined-up proposals for growth, whether it is Hinkley or developing a new university. It feels it will better execute its function as a strategic housing authority and dealing with stakeholders, all of whom prefer the efficiency and productivity of dealing with one entity. It also believes it will strengthen its hand when applying for various types of funding.

Turning to a couple of specific points raised about a unitary proposal, the Department has not received any formal unitary proposal for Somerset. Of course, should one emerge—

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

Could I help the Minister again? I feel I am being too helpful. On the reason the county wants a unitary body, the leader of the county council came to see me and I will quote him next week in Westminster Hall. He said, “I’m going bust and want to take over the districts to balance my books.” Minister, we have a problem; let us not be cavalier.

[Rishi Sunak]

Far from being cavalier, the Government believe in doing things properly by due process. Should a proposal emerge from the county, of course we will consider it alongside the criteria that the previous Secretary of State laid out in Parliament. As I reiterated at the beginning, central Government will, as committed to do in our manifesto, support local areas that bring forward locally-driven proposals and consider them fairly and appropriately.

[Rishi Sunak]

I thank my right hon. Friend on one of the rare occasions that someone has changed their mind during a debate. I agree with him that not only have proposals been driven by the local area but they have been formally consented to by the two councils involved.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset made a detailed point about the definitions in the regulations and order we are considering. Of course, Taunton Deane is a district with borough status. That is very clear in the interpretation section of the order, which defines district councils for the purposes of the order. The definition is:

“‘the District Councils’ means West Somerset District Council and Taunton Deane Borough Council”.

I hope I have assured him that that was not missed.

Lastly, unfortunately my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgwater and West Somerset has raised some very personal allegations against the leader of another council, as he has in the past.

[Mr Liddell-Grainger]

Many times.

[Rishi Sunak]

Indeed. It is fair to raise those things if that is what my hon. Friend wants to do, but he has been told multiple times by the former Secretary of State, the Minister responsible for local growth, my hon. Friend the Member for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry), and the Prime Minister that if he has serious allegations of any criminal or fraudulent activity, he should bring those to the police. He was told that as early as November last year, and also before that. Six months later, no one has received anything. I again urge him that if he has evidence, the appropriate course is to take it to the police.

In conclusion, I thank all Members for their spirited contributions this morning. At this point, we should wish the councils in West Somerset and Taunton Deane all the best as they embark on a new, bright future together as a new entity—Godspeed.

Question put.