International Criminal Court (Kenya)

Debate between Ian C. Lucas and Eric Joyce

Wednesday 9th October 2013 Westminster Hall

[Ian Lucas]

The hon. Gentleman makes an excellent intervention, and puts the difficult question very well. It is, however, important to remember that Kenya has chosen to be a member of the International Criminal Court. If it withdraws, it will leave an international institution that it chose to join. As we have already heard, several countries have refused to join the International Criminal Court. If we are a member of an institution, we have to accept that it has rules that it must apply to its members without fear or favour. The reason why we need to support the Kenyan Government is that they face the very difficult situation caused by the Westgate shopping centre attack, but equally, the fact is that Kenya chose to be a member of the International Criminal Court and, as a consequence of decisions made in Kenya, the court has been seized of the case and is proceeding with it.

To return to the Westgate shopping mall, rigorous inquiries are taking place, and must continue to do so, into the circumstances leading to the attacks. We need to support the Kenyan Government in their taking steps to bring those involved to justice and to ensure that such an incident does not recur. We must also, however, conduct rigorous inquiries into the perpetrators of the violence that followed the 2007 election, because we cannot take action in one area, but not in another, and I therefore turn to the Kenyan Government’s possible attempts to withdraw from the ICC.

We must reflect on the violence in 2007, when, as we have heard, more than 1,000 people were killed and 600,000 people were displaced. The investigations into the violence culminated in the ICC bringing charges, including against the Kenyan President, of crimes against humanity and of orchestrating ethnic violence. For that reason, charges have been brought against President Uhuru Kenyatta and Deputy President William Ruto.

[Eric Joyce]

I do not dispute my hon. Friend’s earnestness and his argument, but can he imagine a situation in which the UK Prime Minister is held responsible by the ICC for some terrible cataclysm? Does he think that we would agree to send the UK Prime Minister to The Hague?

[Ian Lucas]

That would be massively controversial, but we are a member of an international institution. We are discussing international problems, and the world has to deal with more and more internationally connected issues every day: events in Africa profoundly affect our constituencies in the UK. Far from this being a time for us to withdraw from international action, we should be more involved. If we submit ourselves as a nation to the authority of the International Criminal Court, we must accept that that court has jurisdiction. Such an issue would be difficult and many in the United Kingdom would not want to accept the court’s jurisdiction, but if we have submitted to the court through legislation, as has been mentioned, we must accept the consequences. We cannot duck out when it gets difficult; we must accept that such difficult issues need to be addressed, as they should be by the nations involved.

It is a difficult problem of that sort—nobody pretends that it is not difficult—that we now have to address. The Parliament of Kenya is dealing with the difficulty that, in the hypothetical case mentioned by my hon. Friend, might apply in the United Kingdom. The two politicians are not the only individuals facing charges. I understand that the ICC has also issued an arrest warrant for a journalist called Walter Barasa for offering bribes to prosecution witnesses in the trial of Deputy President William Ruto. However, I believe that this trial is the first time that sitting leaders have been tried before the court.

In September 2013—last month—Kenyan MPs, having tabled a motion, voted to pull out of the ICC, and a Bill is likely to be introduced. The withdrawal will still have to pass through Parliament and could take more than a year to come into effect. The ICC will in the meantime continue with the trials of the President and the Deputy President, but if Kenya does pull out, no charges will be able to be brought in this way in the future.

I listened very carefully to the hon. Member for Falkirk and I am aware, of course, of the perception that exists in Africa, linked to the United Kingdom’s role on the continent—its “imperialist past”. Although I respect the hon. Gentleman’s views, I cannot agree with him in this case. I have to say to him that this is about the creation of international institutions and dealing with the very difficult issues to which the hon. Member for Stone referred. We talk about what is happening in Syria, Egypt, Somalia, and Mali. All these matters have in some way involved international capacity and interventions, whether they be military or non-military interventions, in different places at different times. The process of dealing with the problems has been one of using international institutions, because these are international problems.

[Ian Lucas]

I was not specifically, in the context in which I was speaking, talking about the International Criminal Court. I was talking about international problems being dealt with through international institutions. The United Nations and the Security Council of the United Nations are the most obvious example. I was making the general point that international institutions and countries, working together, need to deal with international problems, which manifest themselves within individual countries.

We know that in north Africa, for example, many of the things that have caused major problems in the region have involved groups of people crossing borders at different times. Those borders are often ill defined and not policed in any way. Mali would be one example, and Somalia and Kenya are another. I am talking about a collective approach, through organisations such as the United Nations, and a progression of that. I am saying that, in particular cases, the use of the International Criminal Court is appropriate. For that reason, when countries choose to join the ICC process, it is appropriate that we, as a country that has also submitted itself to that process, support the process.

I think that we need to respect the role of the ICC and international principles of justice and democracy and apply those principles in the future, so I would be extremely concerned about the implications of Kenya withdrawing from the ICC if Kenya were to withdraw, because that would be a step away from dealing with very difficult, shared problems in a collective way. It would be a step backwards, because it would be a step towards more isolation. Ultimately, that would bring about a lower level of capacity to solve the problems that we want to address.

[Eric Joyce]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way again; this will be my last intervention. Kenya will not be isolated, because all the African Union countries will come out of the ICC and it will fall apart. Who knows what will happen soon? I hope that it does not happen, but the risk is that the Kenyans, the Ugandans, the Tanzanians, the Rwandans—most of the African states—will, very sadly and against their own instincts, come out en masse. That is the great risk.

[Ian Lucas]

The real challenge is that if African countries did that collectively, that would lead to a rupture in the relationship between African countries and other countries, which would be deeply worrying and sad.

[Eric Joyce]

Countries that are not members, such as America.

[Ian Lucas]

Well, the United Kingdom is a member and has a very long-standing commitment to the ICC. For that reason, this is a difficult time; people are working through a difficult issue. That is why we should be supporting the ICC at this time, rather than saying that when the going gets tough, we opt out. In those circumstances, the institution will never make any progress. What is needed is for the process to continue and for dialogue to continue. We must support the development of international institutions. Having agreed to set up the ICC and having become a member, if we do not support it when the pressure is on, the institution will never make any progress. It is clear that if that is the case, we will have one less weapon in our armoury to deal with the hugely difficult international problems that we face.

I know that there is a great deal of concern and worry about the ICC proceedings relating to Kenya and that that is affecting our relationship with Kenya. It was inevitable that that would be the case. It is cast into even sharper relief by what has happened in Nairobi in the last month. The hon. Member for Stone has, legitimately and properly, pointed out the practical concerns that are presented by the dilemma that the Government face.

I shall therefore ask the Minister a few questions that he can consider in his response to the debate. First, what does he consider would be the implications of Kenya withdrawing from the ICC? What is his assessment of the position more broadly of African countries on the question of the ICC proceedings against Kenya at the moment and what steps they might take in the months ahead? What specific discussions has he had concerning the operation of the ICC process, and what steps has he taken to try to resolve the dilemmas that we have discussed?

I know that this is a very difficult problem for the UK Government. I know that they will address the problem with rigour, but I do think that engagement is extremely important in the time ahead. We need to remember that Kenya has in the past chosen to be a member of the ICC and it is for that reason that the court is seized of this issue in the first place.

The Internet and Privacy

Debate between Ian C. Lucas and Eric Joyce

Thursday 28th October 2010 Westminster Hall

[Ian Lucas]

That may be the case. We can discuss it as the conversation continues beyond this debate. The hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker), who is no longer in his place—he seems to have disappeared—pointed out a moment ago that information belongs to the individuals who give it in the first place. That is a strong point.

Part of the problem with the issue is that when people use their computers—this certainly applies to me; I am not a geek of the type described by the hon. Member for Cambridge—it does not always occur to them that they are passing on to a third party which books they like or what articles they are interested in. I think that most people are in that position. They concentrate on what they are using the internet for, and it is incidental to them that that information is being secured by a third party. I think that they would be shocked to learn that it was being traded for marketing purposes. The difficulty is that that process is already happening, because people are using the internet and have been for such a long time.

[Eric Joyce (Falkirk) (Lab)]

Is what my hon. Friend has just described not simply a corollary? Someone goes along with their credit card to buy a product and the information is known to Experian, which sells that information. Is it not just a case of people transferring their behaviours online? We are talking about the same stuff. We should perhaps not be too afraid of the fact we are behaving the same way on the internet as we would otherwise behave with our credit cards.

[Ian Lucas]

I am delighted that my hon. Friend is here; he is absolutely right. I feel slightly uneasy about such marketing—perhaps I am old-fashioned in that regard. What my hon. Friend mentioned is another reason to go wider in dealing with the matter. Rather than simply focusing on the internet, we need to consider how information about individuals is collected and used by third-party organisations. The primary purpose of, for example, a credit card is to buy something, not to give information to a third party. I think that someone said earlier that we need to educate the general public much more about the use of information, what is involved in the use of the internet and what information is being given to third parties. That is extremely important.

It is crucial that we give intense consideration to where we are. We need to consult widely with the industry, the internet service providers, the internet companies and the general public about how we deal with this difficult problem. People need to know much more about the scale of the information they are retaining and why it is being retained. I was slightly surprised by the hon. Member for Harlow talking about the extent of the information that Google has and the fact it has not given it to third parties. Why is it retaining that information, particularly when it seems to be very valuable? The exposition on marketing from the hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) was very useful in that regard. The hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster) said that the value of the internet is £100 billion in the UK, so we are talking about massive stakes.

What has come out of the debate is that we need to have a very wide discussion and recognise that private organisations must be scrutinised in exactly the same way and to the same extent as governmental organisations. We have got ourselves into a very serious situation. We have heard about different approaches from hon. Members today and, although shades of different views have been expressed this afternoon, there is recognition across the House that we need to get to grips with the issue. We are not talking about a partisan matter in the same way that some civil liberty issues have been partisan in the past decade.

We have made a very good start on dealing with the matter today, but we need to make further progress. The type of commission that the hon. Member for Harlow mentioned would be a good start, but we must ensure that it consults as widely as possible. An important role of that commission should be to publicise to individuals not just in the UK, but across the world the extent of the information concerning them that is being obtained by these very large—in many cases, multinational—companies.

Collectively, we can deal with the issue. It may be that we can do so through some form of self-regulation. That has the advantage of being applicable across the world, if we can get the biggest companies to buy into such a system. If we cannot do that, it will be a very serious matter. The privacy and liberties of individuals are extremely important and, if required, we need to put in place a system of legislation to ensure that their rights are protected.