Sub-Committee on Disinformation

Debate between Ian C. Lucas and Damian Collins

Thursday 4th April 2019 Westminster Hall

[Damian Collins]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point. This is a worldwide problem. As he knows, we took evidence during our inquiry about problems to do with disinformation in South America and across Europe—this is not just about Russian campaigns of disinformation. The reason why we decided to create this institutional home for our work on disinformation is that such work runs beyond the scope of any one particular inquiry; indeed, looking to develop successor inquiries with a narrow, defined remit could restrict us from looking at other material from elsewhere around the world.

We look forward to the Government’s White Paper and their response to the Select Committee report, because this country could provide a world-leading framework for understanding the liabilities and obligations of technology companies in terms of acting against known sources of disinformation, and I would include disinformation as a form of harmful content, along with other forms of extreme harmful content.

My hon. Friend is quite right that this is a global problem, and I hope our work in exposing what is going on can benefit other inquiries. As he knows, one reason why we established the international grand committee as part of our disinformation inquiry was to aid our partnership work with other Parliaments that are investigating these issues so that we could benefit from their insights and to share our own work.

[Ian C. Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

Less than two weeks ago, in the current febrile political environment, I was sent information from a closed Facebook group making the entirely false allegation that I had paid for two coaches to go to the march in London. I was made aware of that only because an individual contacted me and gave me the information. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is really important that closed groups on platforms are investigated and that this issue is dealt with urgently by Government? If so, what role does he see the Sub-Committee playing in that process?

[Damian Collins]

The hon. Gentleman, who is a member of the Select Committee, makes an important point. He will know that we discussed the role of groups with Facebook during our investigation. We believe they play a significant role in spreading disinformation; it is not just through targeted advertising that someone can drive content through a platform such as that. Indeed, as he knows, the Committee’s final report on disinformation touched on how far-right organisations are using closed Facebook groups with hundreds of thousands of members to spread content very quickly through the web. Content posted into the group by a group administrator goes immediately to the top of the news feed of members, who may in turn share it.

These closed groups may be closed to the public, but Facebook can tell what is going on in them, and it should act where closed groups are behaving irresponsibly or maliciously in spreading lies and disinformation about people. It can see who the administrators are and who is doing that.

As a consequence of the attacks in Christchurch in particular—having an independent regulator with the power to go into the tech companies to see what is going on would facilitate this—we should do an audit of the sorts of groups and organisations that were sharing and promoting the vile content involved. That could provide a really important map of the way in which these far-right groups, in particular, co-ordinate online and spread disinformation.

The hon. Gentleman is quite right that this is not just about global news stories such as the Christchurch attacks; disinformation is also taking place in individual communities. We should be able to report such things to Facebook and know that it will investigate and take action against groups, including by closing them or the administrator down if necessary.

The Internet and Privacy

Debate between Ian C. Lucas and Damian Collins

Thursday 28th October 2010 Westminster Hall

[Ian Lucas]

We should certainly consider that approach. However, I was going to conclude that I do not think that it will be sufficient; I think that some other Members have also taken that view. Self-regulation in media organisations has not had a happy time recently in the United Kingdom. The Press Complaints Commission comes immediately to mind; it has failed badly in the News of the World inquiry and case. I am suspicious of over-mighty international media organisations. What happened in that context—there was a regulator and a voluntary regulatory system—could certainly recur in the case of an organisation such as Google, for example, about which we have heard a lot in this debate. Google is a powerful, rich and monopolistic organisation. What happens in a self-regulatory system where the powerful, over-mighty subject ignores the regulator?

[Damian Collins]

Does the hon. Gentleman think that the problems that he is describing are endemic in all large organisations that handle large amounts of personal data, whether they are search engines, mobile phone companies or banks? It takes only a certain number of rogue employees to release for personal gain private information to which they are privy. The steps that a company can take to protect itself from that are serious, but also complex.

[Ian Lucas]

Indeed. One problem with a Law Society or BMA model, with respect to the hon. Member for Harlow, is that although that would be an appropriate way to proceed for some of the organisations involved in collecting such information—they are responsible professional organisations and would act responsibly—unfortunately, it would not be appropriate for all. Other organisations might take a much more laissez-faire approach—if I dare use that phrase in the presence of so many Conservatives—and would not deal with the issue responsibly. I am concerned that a self-regulatory system might not be as effective as we would like.

[Ian Lucas]

That may be. We are at the beginning of a debate, and I am setting out my personal views at this juncture. When I conclude, I will agree that we need to examine the matter in more detail, but those are my concerns about a self-regulatory framework. With fines, for example, it is difficult to create an effective system that imposes large financial penalties on companies that do not wish to pay them. If the fines involve hundreds of thousands or even millions of pounds, only the force of law will be sufficient to ensure that the necessary action is taken.

[Damian Collins]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way a second time. He is right about fines, but I think that it is possible. I speak from experience, having worked in the advertising industry. An advertiser that breaks the Advertising Standards Authority code may be forced to withdraw an advert that it might have spent hundreds of thousands of pounds making. That is why self-regulation and enforcement of the code are effective in the advertising industry. In the case of the Press Complaints Commission, by contrast, a slap on the wrist or an article in a newspaper is a small price to pay.

[Ian Lucas]

That may be the case. We can discuss it as the conversation continues beyond this debate. The hon. Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker), who is no longer in his place—he seems to have disappeared—pointed out a moment ago that information belongs to the individuals who give it in the first place. That is a strong point.

Part of the problem with the issue is that when people use their computers—this certainly applies to me; I am not a geek of the type described by the hon. Member for Cambridge—it does not always occur to them that they are passing on to a third party which books they like or what articles they are interested in. I think that most people are in that position. They concentrate on what they are using the internet for, and it is incidental to them that that information is being secured by a third party. I think that they would be shocked to learn that it was being traded for marketing purposes. The difficulty is that that process is already happening, because people are using the internet and have been for such a long time.