Broadband Universal Service Obligation

Debate between Ian C. Lucas and Antoinette Sandbach

Thursday 15th December 2016 Commons Chamber

[Ian C. Lucas]

It is essential that we put the infrastructure in place that will deliver for the whole of the United Kingdom; that is the thrust of my speech.

I represent Wrexham. We have heard about rural areas that do not have access to broadband, but Wrexham is a manufacturing and exporting constituency that has many businesses and many modern technology parks around it. Many of those businesses have been telling me over the past few years that they have not been able to access the type of broadband services that are essential for modern businesses to be able to compete.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

The Superfast Cymru project is led and delivered by the Labour-run Welsh Government in Cardiff, so if those businesses are struggling, I suggest that the hon. Gentleman speaks to the Welsh Government in Cardiff, who are rolling out that programme.

[Ian C. Lucas]

It is a matter of regret that the hon. Lady never misses an opportunity to be partisan. If she knew anything about this subject, she would know that the infrastructure and the whole basis on which broadband services are delivered are constructed by the UK Government; it has been their responsibility to deliver the policy of spreading broadband across the UK. It demeans the Conservative party to resort to petty, political point scoring, but that is what I have come to expect from her.

This is a serious, important subject, because I believe in the United Kingdom and in supporting areas right across the country—not just the richest areas, which is the policy of the Conservatives; whenever figures come through from Ofcom, we still see that the richest parts of the country have the greatest broadband provision. That acts against the interests of the nations and regions of the UK. It is the role of government, and the UK Government in particular, to correct the deficiencies of the market, but the coalition and Conservative Governments have failed to do that since 2010. That is why we have heard so many complaints from Conservative MPs at every Culture, Media and Sport Question Time since 2010 about the weakness of broadband provision and services.

I accept that there has been progress. Demand has not stood still since 2010. I know that the hon. Member for Wantage—

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[Ian C. Lucas]

Right honourable. It is always good have personal connections in politics these days; one always secures rewards.

Labour’s commitment to 2 megabits would have established universal provision, so that the entire UK would benefit from the expansion of broadband services. In reality, the richest areas have benefited most. We always accepted that 2 megabits was a starting point and would not be enough, but the important thing was the commitment to a universal service. Jettisoning that principle was disastrous. It reflected a failure to appreciate the essential nature of broadband in today’s economy and society. It accelerated still further the regional imbalances in the UK; this country has the most marked regional differences in income of all OECD countries. If we are to address economic and wealth inequality across the UK, the Government must act to ensure that we have a universal superfast broadband service. I welcome, therefore, the conversion to a commitment to universal service, but it is a shame that that did not happen in 2010, and that it has not been in place for the past six years.

BT has achieved much in broadband provision, and has extended that provision since 2010. However, it effectively has a monopoly over the infrastructure in many areas, yet it is not able to meet the required demand.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Ian C. Lucas]

I will not give way. There are delays in consumer provision reminiscent of the pre-privatisation era of the early 1980s. Individuals tell me time and again that they wait weeks, sometimes months, for a broadband connection when they move house.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way on that point?

[Ian C. Lucas]

I will not give way to the hon. Lady because she makes cheap political points.

In addition, many areas do not have the broadband infrastructure to secure superfast services. Until recently, Wrexham had only one broadband infrastructure system, which was unable to meet the demand from local businesses and individuals. The UK Government, who are responsible for devising the system, should have put in place a governance structure that created either the necessary infrastructure through a monopoly provider or a competitive market in which providers compete to build infrastructure. Their failure is that they have done neither since 2010.

I am pleased to say that in Wrexham, in the past two months, Virgin Media has begun to build its own infrastructure system, its first in north Wales, as part of the Project Lightning programme. I thank Virgin Media for responding to the pressure I have consistently put it under to introduce that system, but if we are to have a universal system right across the UK, it is incumbent on the Government and regulators to create the system necessary right across the UK. That they have not done so already is a failure on their part.

English Votes for English Laws

Debate between Ian C. Lucas and Antoinette Sandbach

Wednesday 15th July 2015 Commons Chamber

[Ian C. Lucas]

Gladstone’s proposals were in home rule Bills, which were of massive constitutional significance. Furthermore, they failed and led to the break in the union that had existed between Great Britain and Ireland. As a result of the failure of that process, we had the break-up of the relationship that existed within these islands. My concern is that these proposals, as the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) said, are a threat to the Union that I love. I was born in England, I am proud to represent a Welsh seat, I have a son studying at Edinburgh University and I want the United Kingdom to continue. That is why I am bitterly opposed to these proposals.

The proposals are of not only enormous constitutional significance, but massive practical significance to my constituents. I am sorry to say that they also draw the Speaker into the centre of political debate. The Speaker will have to determine very controversial, practical matters that will require detailed knowledge of constituencies across the United Kingdom.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

But of course, that idea of legislative consent is dealt with by Presiding Officers in the devolved Assemblies all the time and was the very system the hon. Gentleman voted for when he voted the devolution Bills through.

[Ian C. Lucas]

It is not the same system—it is an entirely different one. These proposals are, for the Speaker, unprecedented because they require detailed knowledge of constituencies that the Speaker cannot be expected to have.

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[Ian C. Lucas]

I agree. It is therefore good that the Leader of the House did listen and did not press these Standing Orders as he wished to do in the first instance. This position is self-evident. Anyone who looks at the facts and knows north-east Wales accepts that that is the case. The difficulty was made clearer to me last Saturday when I received at home in Wrexham, through my letterbox, a ballot paper from the Liverpool Heart and Chest Hospital for an election to the north Wales constituency of the hospital. How can any decision relating to that hospital possibly be English-only, whether it relates to its finances or structure? Health is a devolved matter in Wales, but issues relating to that hospital do involve MPs from Wales. They should be able to represent their constituents in this place, and the proposed Standing Orders threaten that.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

My constituents in Cheshire have no say on the health service in Wales, even though they might belong to a GP practice over the border. They cannot table amendments to Welsh legislation, but the hon. Gentleman can table amendments to legislation here. Under these proposals, only English MPs will be able to vote on English-only matters, but he will not be prevented from standing up, making representations or tabling amendments.

[Ian C. Lucas]

That is the case because this Parliament approved devolution and had a referendum. England, if it so wished, could proceed to have an English Parliament or regional Assemblies. This conundrum has a simple answer, but it is not one that the Conservative party wants to accept.

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[Ian C. Lucas]

Indeed.

The proposed Standing Orders need to be changed so that representations can be made to the Speaker by Members on whether a Bill is an England-only Bill or an England-and-Wales-only Bill. Also, legislation to be certified by the Speaker is defined by reference to the powers of the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly, but some powers are devolved to the Scottish Parliament and not to the Welsh Assembly or the Northern Ireland Assembly. That means that in criminal justice, for example, the Government could bring forward an England-and-Wales-only Bill, excluding MPs from Scotland, even though the Scottish Parliament has responsibility for justice matters, and could legislate using the new procedures. However, the proposed Standing Orders make no provision for a similar power for MPs from Wales, despite the fact that Assembly Members have no powers in the area of criminal justice. For example, if Parliament wished to legislate on the issue of using the Welsh language in courts in Wales, there is no procedure in these Standing Orders to allow that matter to be referred to the Welsh Grand Committee, to give MPs from Wales a double vote, or to enable the double counting voting procedure to apply to MPs from Wales.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

It is an English and Welsh matter.

[Ian C. Lucas]

It is not an English and Welsh matter—it is a Welsh matter, and it should be determined by MPs from Wales.

In those circumstances, it is right and proper that MPs from Wales should have exactly the same double counting procedure as MPs from England, because then legislation on the issue could be carried only with the consent of MPs from Wales. That would be entirely fair and entirely appropriate. However, these Standing Orders do not contain any procedure to allow that to happen. How can this be right? On a non-devolved issue—a Welsh-only issue, in my submission—Welsh MPs should have the same power to deal with it as English MPs have on English-only issues.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

The hon. Gentleman’s example is somewhat disingenuous, because Welsh language issues are devolved to and dealt with by the Assembly, whereas no criminal justice issues are devolved, and therefore that is dealt with as an English and Welsh matter.

[Ian C. Lucas]

Criminal justice matters are not devolved.

If such a position were conceded by the Government, then because, unfortunately for the Government, most MPs in Wales are Labour, a Welsh criminal justice Bill dealing with this issue could pass through Parliament only if we had double voting for MPs from Wales with the consent of the Opposition. The implications of that are enormous.

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[Ian C. Lucas]

I was talking about the implications of giving Welsh MPs—dare I say it?—the same rights as MPs from England. Let us suppose, for example, that a future UK Labour Government dependent on Scottish and Welsh votes for an overall majority wished to lower tuition fees in England, and this was vetoed in a Committee comprising English Members only. After the Committee, the Education Secretary would have to defend in the House a policy with which he disagreed. In effect, he would be the Education Secretary for England, but England could have a Conservative majority. A Labour Minister cannot be responsible to a Conservative majority, so the logical solution would be to have a Conservative Education Secretary. However, there cannot be two Governments at the same time, one for devolved matters and the other for non-devolved matters. A Government have to be collectively responsible for all their policies, not just a selection of them. That is the type of situation that the Standing Orders will create.

The Standing Orders will, in practice, increase the Conservative majority on English devolved matters from 12 to 105 at a stroke. When Labour set up the Welsh Assembly, there were no Conservative MPs in Wales at all. With a majority of more than 150 in the House of Commons, the Labour party introduced an additional member voting system in Wales to ensure that there was a balanced representation within the National Assembly for Wales. The hon. Member for Eddisbury (Antoinette Sandbach) would not have been elected to the National Assembly for Wales because she kept losing under the first-past-the-post system.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Ian C. Lucas]

No, I will not. I will finish this point. I have given way to her too often already. I am speaking for Wales—we know she is speaking for England—and for the United Kingdom, too.

[Antoinette Sandbach]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Ian C. Lucas]

No, I will finish this point.

The Labour Government provided that power because we thought it was right and proper to have balanced representation in Scotland and Wales on the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales. We thought that that was fair. What does the Conservative party want to do? The measure is a partisan one because it increases the Conservative majority in Committee. Effectively, it gives English MPs, the majority of whom are Conservative, double votes. It makes no concession to the Labour party, the Opposition, or to smaller parties within England, which will not have any representation on the Legislative Grand Committee (England). It entrenches and strengthens the position of the Conservative party in England; it does not make any concessions to a broad-based Chamber such as those that were made to the Scottish Parliament and the National Assembly for Wales.