Kurdish Genocide

Ian C. Lucas Excerpts

Thursday 28th February 2013 Commons Chamber

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

We have had an absolutely outstanding debate. Everyone present knows that the cause of recognising the genocide in Kurdistan has noble, well-informed and eloquent torchbearers. They brought to the House speeches of great force and sincerity that made the case very eloquently indeed. Everyone who has spoken should be proud of the contribution they made. I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) that I have listened closely and learned so much. I will consider what has been said extremely carefully.

I am conscious that I am the first person to speak who has not visited Kurdistan, for which I should perhaps apologise; I hope that will be remedied shortly. I have become aware, through my role on the Front Bench, of the great warmth that exists between the people of Kurdistan and the people of the United Kingdom. I have had many discussions about Kurdistan and heard many accounts of the importance of that relationship. What is striking about the strength of the relationship is that, despite the fact that there are aspects of it that bring shame on Britain, as we have heard, because previous Governments of all colours have done things we should not be proud of, the people of Kurdistan, in their current dealings and their warmth, have shown us forgiveness and respect, to their great credit, for which we should thank them very much.

I should start by congratulating the hon. Member for Stratford-on-Avon (Nadhim Zahawi). One of the great advantages of this House is that people who come from different backgrounds bring their own experiences, cultures and knowledge to such subjects. He spoke eloquently, and with a power that was compelling. His personal connections are very special. He should be commended for persuading the Backbench Business Committee, which we should also thank, to allow the debate. We all know that this matter must be taken away, considered and reflected on before moving forward. By bringing it to the House’s attention, he has taken a big step in dealing with the issue and carrying it forward.

We heard an excellent speech from my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn), who brought to the debate her experiences from visits to the region and from the links between Sheffield and Kurdistan, which are building all the time. She referred to films she has seen of the terrible events that took place, which were referred to many times. I remember very clearly watching a “Newsnight” report about the Halabja attacks in the late 1980s, shortly after the attacks took place, which shocked me profoundly. The report showed a ferocity, an inhumanity and an extraordinary inability to treat people with respect that it was difficult to believe could exist. I would be interested to see the films she referred to, because the words that we have struggled to find today to explain how dreadful the events were cannot fully reflect the acts that took place.

The hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon) speaks with great passion on these issues and brought his personal experience to bear on the facts. I think that his Jewish background adds a particular, and hugely relevant, context to the debate. Earlier this year I attended an excellent Holocaust memorial day service just across the road, and I was very conscious of the constant emphasis that the Jewish community places on the fact that the holocaust is not just about them. On that day, a Rwandan survivor explained the effect of the Rwandan genocide on her, and she spoke as eloquently as the holocaust survivors. It is very important that we see this as part of a broader picture.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) has an extremely long, impressive and consistent record on human rights issues, particularly in connection with Iraq. I first got to know her in the period after I came to the House between 2001 and 2003, when she was involved in the organisation Indict, which she mentioned. Not many people were involved in that campaign at the time—it became much more evident after 2003—but she was dogged, determined and absolutely committed to the cause of bringing people to justice. She pursued that from the time I met her in 2001 and is pursuing it today. She has a very long and very proud record. The consistency that she has shown on this issue right through from the 1980s—in fact, since 1977, she told us today—until now does her great credit. She is a very busy woman, so unfortunately she is not here at the moment. I am proud to put on the record the fact that she is a friend, and she has taught me a huge amount about this issue.

The hon. Member for South Basildon and East Thurrock (Stephen Metcalfe) has an advantage over me in that he has visited Kurdistan. He, too, made a compelling case. It is important that the public are aware that we are visiting these places and considering these issues, which are hugely important for all of us as parliamentarians. It does great credit to all Members present that they are here to take part in this important debate.

We then heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Blaydon (Mr Anderson)—I understand him like no one else in this House does. I remember a conversation that we had outside the Chamber when he described his complicated position on Iraq and the contradiction that he sees between his views on the Iraq war in 2003 and what he has discovered from the contacts that he has had subsequently. This is not a straightforward issue; it is a difficult one. Our job is to deal with difficult issues, such as the subject of this debate.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn)—another Member with a long and proud record of campaigning on these issues—said, it is a big step for this House and any Government to say that individual sets of incidents and events constitute a genocide. As we have heard, it is a step that has been taken by other Parliaments, but not necessarily by the Governments of the countries that those Parliaments represent.

The question of whether a set of incidents can be described as genocide has a legal status established under the 1948 convention on the prevention and punishment of the crime of genocide, which defines it as

“mass killings or other acts intended to destroy a particular group of people.”

The word is used colloquially, but its definition under international law is specific. Genocide requires both the material element of the act of killing and the mental element of the intention to destroy a particular group.

[Bob Stewart]

I have been involved in a genocide. To add to the hon. Gentleman’s point, a poor, frightened, absolutely terrified individual facing the agony of being killed does not give a damn about whether it is called a genocide or a crime against humanity—they are frightened beyond their wits. I am sure he will agree with that. These definitions have always worried me and that is what I thought when I was in Bosnia in 1992-93.

[Ian Lucas]

The hon. Gentleman speaks with passion and eloquence from his own experience, which we all respect. We recognise the humanity of what he says. We need to consider how best we can together use the hope behind what we are doing today to ensure that incidents on the scale of a genocide do not happen again. That is what we need to try to achieve. We should reflect on what has been said and consider how best we can prevent genocide from ever occurring again. One genocide is sufficient. We never want to see it again.

[Meg Munn]

I understand the legal issues that my hon. Friend has raised and I am sure that the Minister will address them. I am concerned that the apologies that Governments now often make for things that happened many years ago are not terribly relevant, because they relate to something that somebody else did. In this instance, however, a Government could recognise genocide. That is not particularly something that this or any previous Government have done, but perhaps now is the time, on the back of this debate, for Opposition and Government parties to come together and ask whether this and future Governments should have a process to recognise genocide, because that is important.

[Ian Lucas]

It certainly is important that such matters are dealt with collectively. We are an international community with international institutions and, in international situations such as the one we are discussing, the appropriate approach is to work through international justice bodies to recognise when certain circumstances amount to a genocide. We then need to use our institutions to establish the facts and their implications in law. The legal implications of recognising any set of events—not just those under discussion—as a genocide are considerable. They constitute a particular crime under international law, which imposes obligations on states to prevent and punish with regard to such circumstances.

If something that has happened in the past—such as the events under discussion—is defined as genocide, the question arises of whether retrospective action can be taken. It would be helpful if the Minister clarified whether it is his understanding that a statement that an act was genocide would have a retrospective effect and allow action to be taken against anyone who is held responsible for actions that took place in the 1980s.

We heard about the considerable progress that Kurdistan has made. That has built on the relationship that exists between this country and the Kurdistan region of Iraq. I hope that this debate will add to that relationship. There is a strong group of Members of this House who have spoken eloquently today and who have great respect for Kurdistan and the Kurdish people.

We must work together to reflect on our discussions today. We must also look at what action is being taken in other countries, whether by their Parliaments or Governments, on this issue of genocide in the Kurdish region and see what is the appropriate forum to take that forward.

[Mr Anderson]

My hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) asked about practical things that the Opposition can do. Will the shadow Minister commit our party to entering discussions with representatives of the Kurdistan Regional Government based in this country to see whether they can help us to get evidence that would help to create a legal argument that we could present to the international community? Other countries could then say whether they think that it was genocide or not and give reasons why.

[Ian Lucas]

I would be pleased to meet representatives of the Kurdish Regional Government to discuss the issues that we have been debating and to see what barriers are in the way of this matter being taken forward. I would also be pleased to discuss this with the Minister to explore what further common ground there is on this issue, which is considered important by a number of Back Benchers from both our parties who have made an eloquent and compelling case.

We cannot reach conclusions today, but we have heard a compelling case. This is the start of the matter, not the end. We need to continue to discuss this in detail and to reflect on the best way to take it forward. That is best done collectively both within this country and internationally. We need to reflect on the action that other Parliaments have taken and consider what steps it would be best to take to deal with the appalling set of circumstances that the people of Kurdistan suffered in the 1980s. We must work together to ensure that their pain, suffering and grief is not shared by any other group of people in the future.