NHS Dentistry: Recovery and Reform

Debate between Hywel Williams and Victoria Atkins

Wednesday 7th February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

Is the £200 million additional, in the sense of being diverted from other parts of the NHS in England, or is it new money from the Treasury that would attract the Barnett consequentials for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland? Which is it?

[Victoria Atkins]

We have finite resources. As I have said, this is additional money. I have prioritised dentistry across the board, but this is £200 million of additional money—in addition to the £3 billion that we spend in England.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill (Twentieth sitting)

Debate between Hywel Williams and Victoria Atkins

Committee stage
Thursday 24th June 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

During previous consideration, I raised with the Minister the effects in Wales of some provisions in the Bill. She assured me that those matters are reserved, and that is indeed correct. However, the justice system is just that—a system—and the consequential effects of some of these provisions inevitably extend to matters that are the responsibility of the Senedd in Cardiff and the Labour Government. What those detailed effects might be, one can only surmise at present, but given the substantial interweaving between the implementation of the provisions in the Bill and those matters under the Senedd’s authority, one can only suspect that they will be substantial and significant. Hence we have tabled this new clause, which would require the Secretary of State to issue an assessment of the impact of the Bill on devolved policy and services in Wales within six months of its passing and to issue such an assessment for any further changes in relation to regulations under the Bill within one month of making them.

For the benefit of Committee members who may not be wholly conversant with the intricacies of Welsh devolution, let me explain that the Senedd has policy responsibility, and the power to legislate, in respect of large parts of public provision relevant to this Bill—for instance, health and, importantly for us here today, mental health; local government including, significantly, social services and housing; education up to and including higher education; equalities; the Welsh language; and economic policy in respect of training and employment. The Senedd also funds about half the costs of policing in Wales.

Then there are the policy implications. Wales has a higher rate of imprisonment than England—in fact, we have the highest rate of imprisonment in western Europe. The Welsh Labour Government have a framework to reduce that number. This Bill will lead to higher numbers in jail, one supposes. Wales has a higher rate of imprisoning black and minority ethnic people than England, and the Senedd has a race equality plan. The provisions of this Bill, particularly in relation to stop and search and on bladed weapons, are likely to lead to an increase in the imprisonment of young black men, which will be at odds with the Senedd plan. The Assembly, as it was then, has taken a “wellbeing approach” to many aspects of social provision. The Bill obviously has a more forthright law-and-order stance and thereby is inconsistent with Welsh public policy.

Furthermore, implementing policy requires human resources and costs money. For example, an increase in the number of people in prison would most likely lead to an increased demand for mental health services inside Welsh prisons from without—the local health board. HMP Berwyn at Wrecsam springs to mind. It is the largest prison in the UK and the second largest in Europe. It accommodates many prisoners from outside the health board area and, indeed, from England—people who would not normally use its services. The health board might well be reimbursed for the monetary cost of providing those services, but we all know of course that mental health services are chronically short not just of money but of staff. This could be a substantial burden on the local health board, but we will not know beforehand; there is to be no impact assessment.

An increase in the number subsequently released would have implications for the demand for housing, education, training and jobs. I could go on, but I think the Committee will have already seen how the system in its entirety might be affected. After all, it is a system.

The consequences for the implementation of Senedd policy is not my only concern. The Senedd is a legislature—it passes law—so the question of the effect of the Bill, if enacted, when there is a divergence between the law at either end of the M4 also arises. For example, will the Secretary of State then seek to direct devolved services or at least to influence them, perhaps without the consent of Welsh Ministers? I have to say that this would be entirely unacceptable. Indeed, it would be directly contrary to the clear will of the people of Wales, as expressed in the referenda on the powers of the Assembly, as it was then, most recently in 2011 under the former Conservative Government.

The Minister might say that there are agreements in place between the Ministry of Justice and the Welsh Government to account for divergence, such as the memorandum of understanding in 2013, upon which a concordat in 2018 was produced to establish a framework for co-operation, and that might be sufficient. When I asked the Minister about the memorandum in the context of the development of this Bill, it was unclear, to me at least, whether the concordat processes were followed—not least, whether they were followed effectively—because her response was that she would write further to the relevant Welsh Minister, Jane Hutt, following my question. Clearly, there was a process in place that perhaps has not been completed.

The Committee may not be aware of the work of the recent commission on justice in Wales, under the former Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales, Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd. The report concluded that

“the concordat does not really address the problems or provide a sustainable or long-term solution to the effect of separating justice from other devolved fields.”

That was Lord Thomas’s conclusion. Although justice is not devolved to Wales at present, this apparently clear split is, I think, an oversimplification, for both the Senedd and the Welsh Government, as I said earlier, have introduced legislation and policies leading to a divergence in law and practice in Wales as compared with England.

This is, in fact, recognised in the Welsh law-making processes. Section 110A of the Government of Wales Act 2006, as inserted by section 11 of the Wales Act 2017, requires that new devolved Welsh legislation must be accompanied by a “justice impact assessment” to explain how it impacts on the reserved justice system in Wales. Therefore, what happens in Wales is subject to an impact assessment. However, there is no reciprocal requirement on the UK Government or Parliament to report on the impact that changes to the reserved England and Wales justice system will have on devolved services in Wales, and, as I said earlier, those might be quite profound.

For all these reasons, I believe that the proposals in my new clause are required, and I am glad to have this opportunity to propose it, with the valued support of Labour and SNP colleagues. For me, the long-term practical solution is to devolve justice. Northern Ireland and Scotland now have their own jurisdictions, as I believe will Wales, eventually, but that is perhaps in the long term. In the meantime, quite frankly, it is just not good enough to say that matters in the Bill are reserved, and leave it at that.

[Victoria Atkins]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving us an insight into the complexities and the balances that are a part of the devolution settlement for Wales. I imagine that the Committee’s SNP Member, the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock, if he were here, would say the same about the Scottish devolution arrangements.

It may assist the Committee if I set out the provisions of the Bill that, in the view of the UK Government, relate in part to devolved matters in Wales and, as such, engage the legislative consent process. There are three such provisions. The first are those in chapter 1 of part 2 relating to the serious violence duty, so far as those provisions confer reserved functions on devolved Welsh authorities. The hon. Member for Arfon posed a question about the memorandum in that regard. I am able to help the Committee with the news that we are continuing to discuss with the Welsh Government the direction-making power in clause 17 relating to the duty.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill (Fifteenth sitting)

Debate between Hywel Williams and Victoria Atkins

Committee stage
Thursday 17th June 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Victoria Atkins]

Very much so. I am shameless in plagiarising good ideas to protect people across the country. We have worked very closely with the Scottish authorities to learn from them, and from their work in Glasgow in particular, how they have brought down violent crime in Glasgow. The hon. Gentleman rightly identifies that the serious violence duty very much builds on that work, so that we require every single local authority area to look very carefully at what is happening and at how they can identify and address those problems.

[Hywel Williams]

Will the Minister give way?

[Victoria Atkins]

I will but then I must make a little progress.

[Hywel Williams]

Will the Minister address the points that I raised with the Opposition Front Bench about pilots being held in Wales? Was any consideration given to holding pilots in Wales in the light of the distinct situation there?

[Victoria Atkins]

If I may, I will keep that point back for a little later, but I will develop it. I promise the hon. Gentleman that every single constabulary area was considered carefully and we arrived at the result in a data-driven way. I hope to answer that point in due course.

We know that the police see stop-and-search as a vital tool to crack down on violent crime and we have already made it easier for forces to use existing powers, but too many criminals who carry knives and weapons go on to offend time and again, and serious violence reduction orders are part of our work to help to end that cycle.

The orders will give the police powers to take a more proactive approach and make it easier to target those already convicted of offences involving knifes and offensive weapons, giving the police the automatic right to search those offenders. SVROs are intended to tackle prolific, high-risk offenders, by making it easier for the police to search them for weapons.

SVROs are also intended to help protect vulnerable first-time offenders from being drawn into further exploitation by criminal gangs, by acting as a deterrent to any further weapon carrying and providing a credible reason for those young people to resist pressure to carry weapons.

--- Later in debate ---

[Hywel Williams]

I certainly take the Minister’s point that these things are decided on objective measures. County lines extend into Wales from large conurbations in the midlands and from London. There is one specific point that might be captured were Wales included. It is a comparatively minor and specific point in that in the sentencing code in proposed new section 342A(9) it says that

“the court must in ordinary language explain to the offender”.

I draw the Minister’s attention to the point that in Wales “ordinary language” might mean in Welsh or English.

The Welsh Language Act 1967 says that Welsh and English should be treated on the basis of equality and more recent legislation establishes Welsh as an official language. That free choice of language is pretty subtle and not just a matter of law. Guidance should be given to court officers so that they understand how subtle that might be.

[Victoria Atkins]

The hon. Gentleman raises a good point. I remember visiting Welsh courts and feeling at a great disadvantage that I did not speak Welsh. He raises a serious point. I cannot give confirmation here and now, but I know that we will take that factor into account in due course once the evaluations have been conducted. He makes a fair point and he makes it well.

When Martin Hewitt from the National Police Chiefs’ Council gave evidence to the Committee, he welcomed the piloting of the orders and made the following point, of which we are all aware:

“There is no doubt that there are people who are more violent and have a history of violence, and we do a range of things to try to reduce the number of violent crimes. Our concern is to make sure that there is no disproportionality in the way these orders are used, so we are really keen to work very closely with the pilot site to assess how this can be another tool—and it is just one further tool—in dealing with street violence and violence among younger people.”––[Official Report, Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Public Bill Committee, 18 May 2021; c. 13, Q16.]

I thought Mr Hewitt put that extremely well. This is another tool that we want to put forward to help the police deal with violence on the streets around the country.

The pilot will also test the deterrence effect of SVROs. It will trial how we ensure that vulnerable offenders are directed to local intervention teams, test community responses to the orders and examine the potential impact on disproportionality, as well as building evidence on the outcomes for offenders who are subject to an SVRO.

On the point of deterrence, the available evidence suggests that a criminal conviction can prevent reoffending through the deterrent effect, particularly in changing behaviour in more vulnerable offenders, as it could equip them with a credible basis for resisting gang or other peer pressure to carry knives. A recent academic study has shown that individual searches can produce useful results, such as the discovery of contraband materials. It could also be effective if focused on prolific offenders. One of the many reasons for running pilots on the orders very carefully is to gather evidence on their deterrent effect before they are rolled out nationally. We also understand the importance of scrutiny and oversight and stress the importance of being completely transparent about how SVROs are being used, to reassure communities that the orders are being used appropriately. During the pilot, we will work with partners to address those challenges and ensure that the orders are used appropriately and effectively.

We expect all forces to allow stop-and-search records to be scrutinised by community representatives and to explain the use of their powers locally, as the statutory guidance requires them to do. At our request, the College of Policing has updated its stop-and-search guidance to include better examples of best practice for community engagement and scrutiny, and it is available now for all forces to follow.

As required by clause 140, we will lay before Parliament a report on the operation and outcome of the pilot. That brings me to amendment 98, which would prescribe in the Bill the matters to be addressed in the report on the outcome of the pilot. The amendment lists no fewer than 14 matters that would have to be addressed as part of the evaluation. I will deal with some of the specific points, but before doing so, I again wish to reassure the Committee that we want the SVRO pilots to be robust and their evaluation to be thorough. We are still in the early design phase, and although I may not agree with all 14 points listed in amendment 98, many have merit and I can assure Opposition Members that we will take them into consideration as we progress the design work and agree the terms of the evaluation. I will make the general point that it is not necessary to include such a list in the Bill. Indeed, the approach adopted in clause 140 is consistent with, for example, the piloting provisions in the Offensive Weapons Act 2019 in respect of knife crime prevention orders.

We are talking about those matters listed in amendment 98. As part of the pilot, we plan to evaluate the impact of the orders on black and ethnic minority people. When we considered police forces for the pilot, we took into account the demographics of each force, and it is a key reason why we are piloting SVROs in four forces rather than just one—to ensure that we capture sufficient data, including the ethnicity of those given an SVRO, to properly examine the impact on disproportionality. No one should be unfairly targeted by stop-and-search, and safeguards—including statutory codes of practice, use of body-worn video to increase accountability, and community scrutiny panels—already exist to ensure that that does not happen.

SVROs will be subject to the same scrutiny as current stop-and-search powers. As I said, we expect all forces to allow stop-and-search records, including those for SVROs, to be scrutinised by community representatives and to explain the use of their powers locally, as the current statutory guidance on police use of stop-and-search requires them to do. We are also exploring with the four pilot forces how they can make best use of body-worn video—that is absolutely critical, I think, in opening up transparency—and how they can use community scrutiny panels during the pilot.

What is more, during the Committee’s consideration we have contacted all the pilot areas to ask them what plans they have to contact and engage with local charities and people who work with young people to ensure that the community as a whole has an influence on how the pilots are rolled out, and all four forces have confirmed that they are already in contact with them, or are planning to be, ahead of the pilot. Again, I very much hope that that gives reassurance about the direction of travel that we expect from the four pilot forces, and indeed thereafter, when it comes to the use of these orders.

I understand that there are also concerns about mistaken identity and possible methods, such as using stop-and-account, to identify those who are subject to an SVRO. We very much expect police officers to take steps to confirm somebody’s identity on the street when exercising their powers and to be sure that the person they are stopping is in fact subject to an SVRO. It is also important to note that an officer would be acting unlawfully if they exercised the SVRO powers in relation to a person who is not subject to an SVRO. Again, as part of the pilot, we will monitor use to identify any disparities or concerns that may arise about cases of mistaken identity.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Hywel Williams and Victoria Atkins

Committee stage
Tuesday 8th June 2021 Public Bill Committees

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

It appears that some of the Bill’s provisions intersect with the Welsh Government’s responsibilities. For example, the responsibility for public order is reserved to the UK Parliament, while the provisions relating to noise generated by persons taking part in a procession look set to overlap with the devolved Government’s responsibilities for environmental health. How have the Government addressed those particular concerns, and have they been resolved?

[Victoria Atkins]

I am so sorry; I do not understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns. Are they that this matter is reserved?

[Hywel Williams]

I will explain again. As Dr Robert Jones of the University of South Wales points out, the Welsh Government have responsibilities that seem to overlap with provisions in the Bill; their environmental health responsibility on noise is a particular case in point. The Bill says that demonstrations should not be noisy if they cause alarm and so on, but the Welsh Government have those sorts of responsibilities as well. How have those overlapping responsibilities been addressed and how have they been resolved?

[Victoria Atkins]

I am told that all the provisions relate to reserved matters, so they fall within that framework.

[Hywel Williams]

I will not pursue this matter further, but is it not clear that the Welsh Government have responsibilities on an environmental basis for noise reduction?

[Victoria Atkins]

I cannot add to what I said earlier. These are all reserved matters.

I move on to public assemblies. I will explain why it is necessary for the police to be able to place the same conditions on public assemblies as they can on public processions. The case for the changes in clause 55 was made by Her Majesty’s inspector Matt Parr in his report on policing protest, published in March. The report included the following observation:

“there have been some conspicuously disruptive protests in recent years, both static (assemblies) and moving (processions). Protests are fluid, and it is not always possible to make this distinction. Some begin as assemblies and become processions, and vice versa. The practical challenges of safely policing a protest are not necessarily greater in the case of processions than in the case of assemblies, so this would not justify making a wider range of conditions available for processions than for assemblies.”

It is clear that the challenges of safely policing a protest are not necessarily greater for processions than they are for assemblies. The clause will therefore enable the police to impose conditions such as start times on public assemblies, and prevent excessive noise levels.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill (Tenth sitting)

Debate between Hywel Williams and Victoria Atkins

Tuesday 8th June 2021 Public Bill Committees

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Victoria Atkins)]

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

[Victoria Atkins]

[Hywel Williams]

[Victoria Atkins]

[Hywel Williams]

[Victoria Atkins]