Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill (Sixth sitting)

Hywel Williams Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th May 2021 Public Bill Committees

[The Chair]

I will first call our colleague from Plaid Cymru.

[Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)]

My concern is about clause 17(4), and indeed clauses 18(3) and 19(7), which all say that the Secretary of State must “consult” Welsh Ministers, rather than “seek the consent of”. This is an issue of long-standing concern for me, my party and, indeed, the Welsh Government. Given that it is long-standing and has been discussed before, I will not seek to press a vote on this tonight, although I may consider doing so on Report.

What are we talking about here? Clause 14(3) says:

“A relevant authority and a specified authority must collaborate”

with these requests. Clause 14(4) says:

“A relevant authority must carry out any actions which are specified”,

for example regarding strategy. Clause 14(5)(b) says that local governments “must collaborate”. Clause 16(4) says that a person must supply information to a policing body. I have no particular problems with these provisions, save for that it is the Secretary of State who has those powers in Wales, not the Welsh Government. The point is, of course, that the Welsh Government have responsibility for very relevant areas of government and policy in Wales in respect of the Bill—health, social services, education, local government and a good deal on top of that. Clause 17(4) says that the Secretary of State “must consult” Welsh Ministers before giving directions; clause 18(3) says they “must consult” before giving guidance; and clause 19(7) says they “must consult” before making regulations.

The Secretary of State has duties that must be carried out and powers to compel, but they must only consult, rather than seek the consent of, the Welsh Government or the Senedd. What will happen if there is divergence between Wales and England in policy or law? Of course, the Senedd is now a law-making body. There is a certain body of law—for example, on social services—that is different from that in England. That divergence may be accentuated and grow into the future as the Senedd flexes its muscles, as any half-competent democratic institution will seek to do, so we may have a situation whereby there is a good deal of divergence on the crucial matters that are relevant to the Bill.