Northern Ireland

Debate between Hilary Benn and Rosie Winterton

Thursday 1st February 2024 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

It is very kind of the right hon. Gentleman to say that we are intensely relaxed about the prospect that we might form the next Government, and who am I to disagree with him in that observation?

The point about divergence is that it is a choice. It is striking to note the number of instances since we left the European Union when the current Government decided that they were going to diverge, and then suddenly had second thoughts about it because it did not really make a lot of sense. I make no apology for having given the example of the veterinary SPS agreement that we would like to reach, because it would help our businesses in the UK, businesses in Northern Ireland and businesses in the European Union. That is my definition of common-sense negotiation—the decision has been made, but that does not mean Britain cannot seek to improve the relationship we have with the European Union in our interests and the interests of our European neighbours.

I also welcome regulation 3(3), which would require a Minister before the Second Reading of a Bill containing provisions that would affect trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom either to make a statement that it would not have such an effect, or to set out the reasons why the Government want to proceed none the less. It may be difficult at this stage, but I wonder whether the Secretary of State in winding up could give us an example of the circumstances in which Ministers might want to make use of the provisions in proposed new section 13C(2)(b) to the European Union (Withdrawal) Act, found at the top of page 4 of the regulations. In other words, in what circumstances would the Government want to proceed with legislation even though it would have an adverse effect?

I welcome the clarifications made in regulation 4 regarding any independent review that may follow the democratic consent vote. That vote by Assembly Members must take place, as I understand it, by the end of this year. Has the Secretary of State had any discussions with Northern Ireland political parties as to when, exactly, that vote might take place, or does he intend to do so, or is it entirely a matter for those parties?

I will return in the subsequent debate to the matters I wish to raise on the UK internal market regulations, Madam Deputy Speaker. I now bring my remarks to a close.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

There is obviously a big time pressure on this debate. I want to bring the Secretary of State back in at 1.49 pm, so I urge colleagues to be brief if they possibly can. I call the Chair of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

Northern Ireland Budget (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Hilary Benn and Rosie Winterton

Committee of the whole House
Monday 4th September 2023 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

May I begin by expressing my thanks to my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Hove (Peter Kyle), who has already been mentioned this evening, for the outstanding contribution he made in this role and to wish him well in his new job?

It is clear from the debates during the Bill’s passage that the current situation was not sustainable, hence the need for the Bill. Public services are under strain. Indeed, the Minister has just said that the pressures are acute and I agree with him. It is noticeable that the Bill has been widely perceived as a budget that does not take account of those needs and those pressures. It is clear that we cannot keep setting budgets in this way and that the structural problems in Northern Ireland are getting worse in the absence of an Executive. It is not fair or right to ask civil servants to make decisions which politicians should be making. The political vacuum in Northern Ireland is having serious consequences. The crisis facing the police service is all too evident—we discussed that earlier today in the urgent question—and the Secretary of State heard many references to the financial pressures it is already facing, never mind the costs that may arise from responding to the data breach. But there are concerns about other Departments, too. NHS waiting lists for Northern Ireland are the worst in our country. There are reports that Northern Ireland schools are only now being surveyed for structural weaknesses caused by reinforced concrete. If that finds that costs are required to be met to repair or replace those roofs, will that money have to come out of the budget set by the Bill? I understand that the Secretary of State has received advice from civil servants about possible revenue-raising measures. How does he plan to use them? Will they be published?

Those and other challenges are the stuff of Government. It is what we are elected to deal with wherever it is that we sit, but that is not happening in Northern Ireland at the moment and it needs to in the interests of its citizens, a point made very clearly by the hon. Member for North Dorset (Simon Hoare), who chairs the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. On Second Reading before the recess, the Secretary of State said:

“The summer therefore presents an opportunity for the Northern Ireland parties to come together as a restored Executive and take their own budget legislation through the Assembly, making the remaining stages of the Bill in this place superfluous.”—[Official Report, 10 July 2023; Vol. 736, c. 101.]

Now, we would all wish that that had happened but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gower (Tonia Antoniazzi) pointed out, it is not entirely clear what was done over the summer by the Government to try to bring the Northern Ireland parties together. We know that the Prime Minister was very happy to visit Northern Ireland after the Windsor framework—a great achievement, but it was meant to restore power sharing—but his absence since has been noticeable. And it is not clear, to be honest, what the Government’s plan is now to regain trust, including by responding to the continuing concerns expressed by the Unionist community in Northern Ireland to enable the institutions to get up and running again.

The Labour party does not oppose the Bill as to do so would cause deeper instability, but, as I think everybody who has contributed so far tonight has said, the best and only way forward is the restoration of Stormont so that local representatives can get to grips with the budget and be accountable to the people who elected them, the people of Northern Ireland, for the decisions they make. Frankly, that day cannot come soon enough.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I call the Scottish National party spokesperson.

Building Safety

Debate between Hilary Benn and Rosie Winterton

Tuesday 14th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I need to reiterate that I can only call Members who arrived at the beginning of the statement. It is the responsibility of Members to make sure they get here in time to hear the Secretary of State’s statement from the beginning. I assure Members that I and the other Deputy Speakers are even-handed about this.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

I very much welcome this statement, but I want to ask the Secretary of State about people living in buildings under 11 metres. The Government were not prepared to extend full coverage to them but said they would look at those buildings on a case-by-case basis—a commitment that the Secretary of State repeated this afternoon. Could he tell us how that is going? How many of those buildings have had assistance? What criteria are he and his colleagues using in deciding where to offer help? Does it include, for example, cases where the developers or builders went bust years ago? Does it include buildings where the leaseholders still cannot sell their flats because mortgage companies will not lend on them, despite the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors advice?

Achieving Economic Growth

Debate between Hilary Benn and Rosie Winterton

Wednesday 18th May 2022 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

There is no doubt that if we put more costs, bureaucracy, red tape and increased transport costs on businesses, prices will increase. That is one of the ways businesses cope. Those things need to be sorted out but, as long as there is no trust between the European Union and the United Kingdom, it is frankly not going to happen.

The principal cause of that distrust is the stand-off over the Northern Ireland protocol, which is the other issue I want to raise. We have two problems. One is that the Northern Ireland Government is not functioning and the second is that the Northern Ireland protocol is not working. The Good Friday agreement and the power-sharing and peace it has brought cannot be jeopardised by trade problems caused by the protocol.

It is extremely tempting to dwell on the miserable history of how we got here—how the Prime Minister moved from promising that he would never put a border in the Irish sea to promptly doing so when he became the occupant of No. 10, and then to describing it as “a great deal” for Northern Ireland—but, in all honesty, the Prime Minister’s failings and inconsistencies are not a reason to inflict damage on Northern Ireland or on the British economy when so many people are struggling.

We all knew that leaving the European Union would create difficulties over Ireland. The only thing everyone agreed on—practically the only thing—was that there could be no return to a hard border. That is why the most important part of the protocol talked about goods at risk, and this is at the heart of the debate: goods at risk, having entered Northern Ireland, of going into the European Union, as opposed to goods that are going to stay in Northern Ireland. That was never defined, and the joint committee was given the task of dealing with it.

We have a stand-off at the moment. In one way, that stand-off could just be extended and extended and the Government could continue to prolong the grace periods—unlawfully, as per the protocol—with the EU starting legal action and staying it while they try to negotiate. That is one way of dealing with it. In fairness, the EU moved on medicines, and I praise Maroš Šefčovič for that. He changed EU law to allow NHS patients in Northern Ireland to get NHS medicines, which is pretty obvious really.

I said to Mr Šefčovič on Thursday, when he appeared before the Parliamentary Partnership Assembly, “Thanks for doing that, but if you can move on that, can you not move on other things as well?” We all know the list of remaining problem areas: seed potatoes, parcels, guide dogs, supermarket deliveries to shops, organic food and divergence on the use of titanium dioxide, an ingredient in cakes and ice cream that I was not previously aware of. The EU proposals would provide more checks and problems than the current stand-off, and it is important to recognise that.

I say to the Government, as I said to the Foreign Secretary yesterday, that threatening to disapply the protocol will not work. In the end, it will result in retaliation. If retaliation results in further obstacles to trade or, heaven forbid, a trade war, that will make the cost of living crisis even worse. We have a real war in Europe going on; we do not need a trade war with our biggest trading partner.

At the same time, the EU needs to understand that it has to move to help to bring this crisis to an end. If one takes those supermarkets that sell only to shops in Northern Ireland, what exactly is the risk to the integrity of the single market from a sandwich, a cake or a chicken—I speak as a vegetarian—that is bought in a supermarket in Strabane or Belfast? Can anyone point, in the 16 months the grace period has operated, to a single example where the integrity of the single market has been damaged? I am not aware of any. There is a problem with divergence, but I hope that a way of mutually recognising each other’s food production standards arrangements can come.

In conclusion, this crisis arises from a practical problem and it requires a practical solution. That is what politics is meant to deliver. That is our job. We need patient diplomacy and negotiation that takes as its starting point the purpose of the rules—they are there for a purpose—rather than the rules themselves and applies that to the unique and particular circumstances of Northern Ireland. Could we have less squabbling and more cool heads? Could we have less escalation and more conciliation? My message to both sides in the partnership council is a simple one: “You’ve got the power to deal with this. Sort it out.”

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Just a gentle reminder that my guidance was seven minutes. I call Chris Grayling.

Environment Bill

Debate between Hilary Benn and Rosie Winterton

Wednesday 20th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am very glad that the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) has raised this matter, because I saw that set of gallows as I was coming into the House today and I spoke to the police outside the gates. I said, “I don’t know who the protestors are; I couldn’t see. If they are protesting against capital punishment in other countries, good luck to them, but if they have put that gallows and that noose there, directed at us, especially given the events of the last week, it is not only crass—that is a very gentle description of what they have done—but scandalous.” The police officer to whom I spoke said, “Well, we could go over and have a word with them.” It is not acceptable, because it is a threat. We should be able to carry out our job without being threatened by people out in Parliament Square. I hope that the House authorities might be able to follow up the point, and I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising it.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I thank the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) and the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) for their points of order, and completely understand the concerns that have been expressed. I also understand that the authorities have been informed by the Speaker’s Office about the situation. Mr Speaker has also informed me that there may be a statement later if necessary and that these issues would be covered in it. I suggest that we leave it at that. Thank you.