Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Monday 27th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

At a meeting in Leeds on Saturday of leaseholders affected by the cladding scandal, nearly two thirds said that they have absolutely no idea when their home is going to be made safe—six years after Grenfell. Does the Secretary of State agree that that is completely unacceptable? What is he going to do to make their homes safe?

[Michael Gove]

I saw reference to that meeting on the right hon. Gentleman’s Twitter feed. I owe him a visit to Leeds to talk to his constituents about that.

Building Safety

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Tuesday 14th March 2023 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

I very much welcome this statement, but I want to ask the Secretary of State about people living in buildings under 11 metres. The Government were not prepared to extend full coverage to them but said they would look at those buildings on a case-by-case basis—a commitment that the Secretary of State repeated this afternoon. Could he tell us how that is going? How many of those buildings have had assistance? What criteria are he and his colleagues using in deciding where to offer help? Does it include, for example, cases where the developers or builders went bust years ago? Does it include buildings where the leaseholders still cannot sell their flats because mortgage companies will not lend on them, despite the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors advice?

[Michael Gove]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. In most cases, a building under 11 metres which might, for example, have cladding on it, or might have some of the materials that in other circumstances would be systemically unsafe, does not have safety risk. We need to look proportionately at each building, and that takes time. Thanks to the energetic efforts of the Minister for building safety, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire, we have reached agreement with a majority of lenders, which are now lending against properties, because through the engagement we have had with them, there is now a more proportionate way of deciding whether or not to lend against those buildings. As we have discussed in the past, however, let us look at individual cases, and if constituency cases and examples have come to light that the right hon. Gentleman feels are not captured by the steps we have taken so far, I look forward to working with him to address them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Monday 20th February 2023 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

I do not need to badger the Chancellor; we are not just constituency neighbours, but brothers from different mothers. More than that, the newly appointed Minister of State, Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, my hon. Friend the Member for Redditch (Rachel Maclean), was immediately on the case. We will secure an extension to make sure that my hon. Friend’s constituents get the benefits from the scheme that they deserve, and I look forward to meeting him next month.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Does the Government’s commitment to look at helping blocks below 11 metres with cladding apply not only where that cladding is found to be dangerous and needs to be removed, but where lenders are still demanding EWS1 certificates, which cannot currently be provided?

[Michael Gove]

Let me look into the specifics of any individual case. It should be the case, however—as the conversations that the Under-Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley), has had with lenders show—that there has been a significant diminution in the demand for EWS1 forms. Where they are still being demanded, however, I would like to know more, so I look forward to working with the right hon. Gentleman to find out more about any kinks in the system.

Building Safety

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Monday 30th January 2023 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

That is entirely understandable, and once construction companies have signed this contract—and indeed this applies to social landlords too, once they commit to remediation—they should be in touch with the tenants and leaseholders to let them know when that work will be carried out. Again, I want to make sure that everyone is operating as they should. I would be grateful to the right hon. Gentleman if he could let me know, building by building, scheme by scheme, where people are still in doubt about this, and we will do everything possible to give them the information they deserve.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Far too many leaseholders are still living in properties that have not been remediated, including in my constituency at Cartier House, the Gateway, and the Drive, Saxton Gardens, which was turned down for building safety funding even though the cladding has recently failed a fire test. As a result, five and a half years after Grenfell, a waking watch has been put in place. This is not good enough, is it? When are they going to get sorted out?

[Michael Gove]

No, it is not. There are a number of other constituencies and local authorities where either a waking watch has been installed or people have had to be decanted from the building, as was the case in Ipswich and in South Yorkshire. We are seeking to move as quickly as possible in order to ensure that that work advances. As I mentioned, the overwhelming majority of the buildings over 18 metres that have ACM now have work in place or being carried out. However, I will follow up on the individual cases that the right hon. Gentleman was kind enough to mention.

Social Housing Standards

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Wednesday 16th November 2022 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Lady makes a fair point about ensuring that we do everything possible to support local authorities to increase social housing stock. Of course, we do need to keep that under review and, again, we will be saying more about that in due course.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman), who is no longer in his place, spoke for all of us when he described how our constituents are often told that they are somehow to blame for damp, condensation and mould. I very much welcome the clear statement the Secretary of State just made that that will no longer be acceptable from any landlord. Given that he has said that, we can tell our tenants that from today. Will he consider putting a time limit on the period in which the housing provider must fix a problem from when it is first raised? I do believe that that would concentrate the mind. In many cases—we will all be familiar with this—the problem goes back and forth and still does not get sorted out.

Social Housing and Building Safety

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Thursday 9th June 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities and Minister for Intergovernmental Relations (Michael Gove)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered social housing and building safety.

The events of the night of 14 June 2017 were unimaginably horrific. The fate of those living in Grenfell Tower is something that none of us can ever forget. I am sure I speak for Members across the House of Commons when I say that the 72 innocent people who lost their lives—18 of them children—will forever be in our memory. Today we are approaching the fifth anniversary of that tragic night and we all, particularly those of us in government, have a chance as a House to reflect on the tragedy and the important questions that it posed. We have to be clear: what happened that night should never have occurred. Each of us has a right to be safe in our home. The situation in which the residents of Grenfell Tower were placed was unforgivable. The fact that those in the tower were not safe exposed failures that had been overlooked for too long—failures in building control and safety that it is vital we address.

As we reflect on this tragedy, we should bear in mind that there had been warnings before that night. Residents of the tower and others had warned about how the voices of those in social housing were not heeded. In reflecting on what happened, we should reflect not only on the failures in regulation and building safety but on the way in which social housing tenants had not had their rights respected or their voices heard as they should have been. We all have to do better to ensure that issues of life and death are never overlooked again, and that everyone in this country can live their life in safety and dignity, in a home that is warm, decent and safe.

I am glad that we are joined in the Public Gallery by some of those directly affected, including bereaved families, friends and survivors who, for almost five years now, have been living with the ongoing consequences of this tragedy in north Kensington. Since I was given this responsibility as Secretary of State last September, I have been genuinely humbled to hear the personal stories of those affected by the tragedy. I thank them for the vigour, energy, sincerity and determination of their campaign. It cannot have been easy—by God it cannot have been easy—to live with the memories of what happened five years ago, but the people joining us here today, and their friends, relatives and neighbours, have campaigned with dignity and resolution over the last five years to ensure that appropriate lessons are learned.

I can think of few better representatives of community spirit, few better activists for a better world, than those from Grenfell United and the other organisations representing the next of kin, bereaved relatives and survivors. It is important the Government recognise that those voices and that activism should result in action. Again, I apologise to the bereaved, the relatives and the survivors for the fact that, over the last five years, the Government have sometimes been too slow to act and have sometimes behaved insensitively. It is important that we now translate the actions they are demanding into real and lasting change. As I hope I have done, and as I will always seek to do, that involves acknowledging what we got wrong as a Government and what went wrong more widely in our building safety system.

It is clear from the wonderful documentary work on the experience of those in Grenfell Tower that their representatives had warned before the refurbishment about some of the dangers, some of the high-handedness and some of the lack of consideration for which the tenant management organisation and others charged with tenants’ welfare were responsible. Lessons need to be learned about that.

It is also the case that, in the immediate aftermath of the fire, many of the institutions upon which people in North Kensington should have been able to rely failed them. We have to be honest about that, too. There is nothing I can say from the Dispatch Box today that can make up for those failures. All we can do is seek to learn from those mistakes and make sure we work with the community to ensure that nothing like this tragedy ever happens again.

My Department has a dedicated team of civil servants who are working to make sure those lessons are learned and the community’s voices are heard, and I thank all the officials who have worked with the community over the past five years, and who in many cases have become close friends of those affected, for their work. I also thank other professionals in the public sector who have worked with the community and families. I particularly want to thank those in the NHS. The health and wellbeing of many survivors of the tragedy has been impaired in a terrible way, and the commitment of NHS professionals to working with those who have been affected is admirable and worthy of our support and, certainly on my part, gratitude.

I also wish to thank two colleagues, Nick Hurd, a former Member of this House, and Baroness Sanderson, who have been advising the Prime Minister on how we can support the Grenfell families. Both of them were, of course, appointed by the former Prime Minister, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead (Mrs May), and I would like to thank her as well for the continuing close personal interest she takes in the issues that the Grenfell tragedy has brought to the forefront of all our minds.

I also want to thank the independent Grenfell Tower Memorial Commission, and I stress that it is independent; it includes elected community representatives, and it has been working hard to ensure that we can have a permanent and appropriate memorial to honour those who lost their lives in the tragedy. I recommend to all Members of the House the commission’s recent report. It makes for powerful reading and gives us all an opportunity to reflect on what the right way is to ensure that there is a fitting memorial for those who have lost their lives. The scene of that fire is both, of course, a crime scene and a sacred place, because for all those who perished that night we want to make sure that their memory is never forgotten. That is why my Department wants to work with the commission to ensure that its report is brought to fruition.

I also want to thank those who have been working with the public inquiry, under Sir Martin Moore-Bick. I know that when the inquiry was set up many representatives of the community were concerned that its work might not meet the needs of the hour, but I think that Sir Martin and his team, particularly the counsels to the inquiry—the lawyers who have been working diligently to get at the truth—have done us all a service. They have laid bare a series of mistakes that were made by those of us in government and by others, and they have exposed what I believe is wrongdoing on the part of a number of organisations. I do not want to pre-empt the conclusions of the inquiry and the steps that will necessarily need to be taken to ensure that justice is done. Sir Martin’s inquiry’s first report made a series of recommendations and it made uncomfortable reading for some, but it also ensured that the decision by my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead to set up the inquiry has been vindicated. We now need to ensure that we take seriously all the forthcoming recommendations when the inquiry concludes.

Of course, we in government have not waited for the inquiry to conclude in order to take action. Not all of the steps that should have been taken have been taken, but in recent months we have been seeking to ensure that in respect of the direction of travel set out by the inquiry, and by others who have looked closely at the problems that underlay our regime of building safety, appropriate steps have been taken.

It should not have taken a tragedy such as the Grenfell Tower fire for us to realise that there were problems in our building safety regime and in our regulatory regime. But now that we have had an opportunity to reflect, study and look at the multiple and manifold failings, we know that a significant amount of work, which we are undertaking, requires to be completed as quickly as possible. We know that shortcuts were taken when it came to safety. We know that unforgiveable decisions were made, in the interests of financial engineering, that put lives at risk. We also know that in my Department individuals sought to speak up and to raise concerns but those voices were not heeded. That must rest on my conscience and those of Government colleagues. Many of those involved in construction, from those in the construction products industry to those directly involved in the refurbishment and remediation of buildings, just behaved in a way that was beyond reckless. That is why it is so important that the collective fight for justice that the Grenfell community have asked for results in those responsible being brought to book. In the meantime, we have been seeking to ensure that we put in place a regulatory regime that repairs some of the damage of the past and that money is made available to repair buildings in which people still find themselves in unsafe conditions.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State is being eloquent and honest in his apology for what happened—the collective failure. However, on the point that he has just addressed, he will be aware that there are cases where professional fire safety advisers have told leaseholders that the cladding on their building is not safe and does not comply with the new rules, but when those leaseholders have made applications to the building safety fund they have been turned down. Some of them are now having to contemplate spending £70,000 to £80,000 and waiting another eight months to put the panels in combination on a rig and then set fire to them. If those tests, the BS 8414 tests, go ahead and they show that the cladding does burn and causes a risk, will he undertake that the building safety fund will look again at the applications for funding, so that those buildings get the money, enabling work to begin, and people can feel safe in their homes?

[Michael Gove]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very good point. He has been, if I may say so, a consistently clear and authoritative voice on behalf of those who have found themselves in an incredibly difficult situation. The leaseholders he has described should not be in that position. There have been problems with the building safety fund—there absolutely have. Let me promise him that I will look at the specific case that he raises and, indeed, the wider issues and see what we can do to make sure that the building safety fund, which has not been discharging funds at the rate, at the pace and in the way that it should, does better.

Levelling Up

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Wednesday 2nd February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My right hon. Friend is correct; that is why I sought in my statement to emphasise that levelling up can only succeed if British business and private enterprise succeed. That means the right regulatory framework, outside the European Union, as we spelled out on Monday. There are steps we have taken and can take to ensure that we have smarter and leaner regulation.

More broadly, I think that if we look at the success of great industrial towns in the past, we see that figures such as Joe Chamberlain were driven by the spirit of private enterprise, but by civic pride as well. Chamberlain provided an example of great local leadership, and also of ambition to improve education. The mission that he led in Birmingham to ensure that universal education was extended even to the poorest was the perfect complement to the drive that he showed in generating wealth through the market.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

One of the great inequalities in my constituency is the gap between those who are able to feed their families and those who are not. In every year since the Government took office the use of food banks has increased, and last year 2.5 million food parcels were given out to people who had gone up to a complete stranger and said, “Can you help me to feed my family?” What are the Government going to do to bring an end to this scandal?

[Michael Gove]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. We have taken, and continue to take, a series of steps through the supporting families programme. We are also outlining in the White Paper some of the proposals that we are taking forward as part of Henry Dimbleby’s national food strategy, which explicitly addressed some of the particular challenges to which the right hon. Gentleman has rightly drawn attention, to ensure that people have the resources and the capacity to put healthy food on the table for their children. I look forward to perhaps visiting Leeds with Henry Dimbleby to talk to the right hon. Gentleman about exactly how we can achieve the change that we need.

Building Safety

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Monday 10th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. We want those we can identify as the responsible owner or freeholder of properties to contribute to and meet the needs of fire safety costs, but we are already looking at the wider development community and at construction products manufacturers to help to ensure that we have sufficient resources to provide relief to leaseholders everywhere.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

I join the tributes to Jack Dromey. Our shock is all the greater because we thought that he would always be with us; the whole of his life was dedicated to being there for others, as a representative of workers who was very proud to serve his constituents.

I welcome the statement that the Secretary of State has made today. It represents progress—loans were never going to work; they were unfair. However, my constituents will have listened very carefully to the exchanges between the Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), the Chair of the Select Committee and the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) on the question of liability for non-cladding costs. I have many constituents, as do other Members, whose bill is on the mantelpiece, staring at them. Given that the Secretary of State has offered statutory protection, what are they meant to do with those bills? Can they confidently say, “I do not have to worry about that now, because the Government are going to sort this out”? When he talks about statutory protection, he mentioned protection against forfeiture and eviction. May I add a third risk to that list, which is bankruptcy? That is what many people are facing if they are ever forced to pay these bills that they are not responsible for and cannot afford.

[Michael Gove]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right: such people are not responsible for these problems and in many cases they cannot afford the bills. I would not want to give advice precipitately to any individual at the moment about their particular circumstances without knowing every aspect of their particular circumstances, but it is vital that we move as quickly as possible. What I will want to test with him and others is the efficacy of the legislative solution that we propose to bring forward, because I am confident that it will help enormously, but I want to be in a position where he and others have an opportunity to stress test it, so that we get the best possible protection.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Monday 29th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

Culture is absolutely vital to levelling up. One thing I was discussing with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport earlier today was the importance of making sure that more of the Arts Council funding that is currently spent in London and the south-east is spent in the midlands and in the north. Our acting and performing talent is spread equally across this country, but funding and institutions are not. We must do more, and my hon. Friend is absolutely right.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State said earlier that his revised plans to solve the cladding crisis would be published shortly. Will that be before the forthcoming recess? All long-suffering leaseholders in my area want for Christmas is finally to hear that they will not have to pay sums they do not have to fix a problem they are not responsible for.

[Michael Gove]

Yes, I really do have to come back before Christmas with proposals. I cannot promise at this stage that they will relieve the burden on every leaseholder of every obligation, but we will do everything we can to help.

Northern Ireland Protocol: Implementation

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Tuesday 2nd February 2021 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely spot on and makes the central point. People in Northern Ireland will have heard, during the whole Brexit process, professions of care and concern from EU politicians about Northern Ireland. Some of those were sincere, but the way in which the Commission has behaved in the course of the past week is of deep concern. I should say that I absolutely exempt Vice-President Maroš Šefčovič from this: he completely understands the need to make sure that we have a pragmatic resolution to this problem. But not every European politician understands the situation in Northern Ireland anything like as well as my right hon. Friend does, and we do need to make sure that we have a resolution that recognises Northern Ireland’s integral place in the UK, while also ensuring that we have the best possible relationship with all our neighbours.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab) [V]]

The right hon. Gentleman has just said that he would like to see the grace periods extended, but the Northern Ireland Secretary recently told the Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs that

“we are not at the moment in a position where we want to be looking at extending the grace period.”

Can the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster therefore explain what Government policy actually is on this? Given that UK supermarkets have expressed grave concerns about having to provide export health certificates for each food item in their lorries heading for Northern Ireland supermarkets, do the proposals that he will be putting to the Joint Committee involve doing away with export health certificates on such goods altogether?

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for that. We want to work through the Joint Committee to address precisely the issues that he raised. It is important that in that Joint Committee we have a practical, step-by-step analysis of the disruption and difficulties that are currently faced, and we judge which of those issues can best be resolved either through an extension of the grace period or by revisiting the operational aspects of the protocol. The Joint Committee exists for that purpose, and even though his Select Committee no longer exists in its current form, I look forward to having the opportunity to update him and others in the House about the progress that we make.

Northern Ireland Protocol: Disruption to Trade

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Wednesday 13th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

The truth is that it is a combination of factors. The first and most important thing is to make sure that all businesses, particularly businesses in Great Britain that trade and do business in Northern Ireland, understand what is required of them. That responsibility rests on my shoulders and on the Government’s; that is the first and the single most important item. The second thing, as my hon. Friend quite rightly points out, is not so much that there is an over-zealous application—for example, by the Northern Ireland Executive—but that there is, in the way in which some of the rules apply, a rigidity, which we need to address. That is why we are taking the action that we are—for example on VAT, on steel imports and on groupage.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab) [V]]

The right hon. Gentleman has received a letter from the big supermarkets warning of the risk of further disruption to Northern Ireland food supplies from April, and this morning the Committee on the Future Relationship with the European Union heard evidence from the British Retail Consortium that unless there are changes, the system will not be workable for supermarkets. Of course, he cannot guarantee that the current three-month grace period—in which, for example, export health certificates are not required—will be extended, because that is a matter for the Joint Committee. What will happen if it is not extended? What would that mean for choice and prices for consumers in Northern Ireland?

[Michael Gove]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very important point. As I mentioned earlier, I am grateful to his Select Committee for the exchanges with Andrew Opie, which provided reassurance about the operation of the protocol at the moment, but he is right to raise the letter that was sent to me by Helen Dickinson of the British Retail Consortium on behalf of a range of supermarkets. We are working intensively with those supermarkets and the Commission to address the problems. So far in my experience, Maroš Šefčovič, the Vice-President of the Commission, has always taken a pragmatic approach. As the shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Louise Haigh) reminded us, it is the responsibility of both the UK and the EU to ensure that the protocol impacts as little as possible on the lives of Northern Ireland citizens.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Thursday 17th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

Yes; my hon. Friend does an excellent job in standing up for her constituents in Hastings and Rye. The fishermen she represents so effectively know that we, as an independent coastal state, will be in control of our waters at the end of the transition period. Of course we want to make sure that we manage shared stocks in an appropriate way with all of our neighbours, including those outside the EU, but as an independent coastal state we are in control.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

We all wish the negotiators well in this final stage, as they demonstrate that sharing sovereignty—gaining benefits by accepting obligations—is what will be required in order to reach the agreement that the Government say they want and which we all want. Can the right hon. Gentleman tell the House whether the legislation that will be required to give effect to any agreement will need to pass all of its stages in Parliament by 31 December this year in order to provide clarity to individual businesses about what they can do from 1 January next year, which is, after all, only 15 days away?

[Michael Gove]

The right hon. Gentleman reminds us all of the importance of seeking to conclude these negotiations as quickly as possible. If they are concluded satisfactorily, we will request that the House returns in order to make sure that we can legislate effectively. We believe we can pass the necessary legislation before 31 December to give businesses legal certainty for the future.

EU Withdrawal Agreement

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Wednesday 9th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

On the first point, my hon. Friend is absolutely right: section 38 of the Act that gave effect to the withdrawal agreement upheld the sovereignty of this place, and there is nothing in what we have concluded that in any way diverges from that. On the second question, I am very sorry that I have played hard to get, but I will make sure that we can have a date before Christmas when the two of us can meet in suitably covid-compliant surroundings.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s statement, because it shows what can be achieved with political commitment, and I do hope that we will see more of that later today. However, he seems to have brought back not a permanent arrangement but a series of grace periods, and I want to ask him about that.

For example, it has been reported that food products coming from GB into Northern Ireland will be exempt from export health certificates for a period of at least three months, and that chilled meats—the right hon. Gentleman referred to sausages—will be allowed for a period of time, pending a review, after which they might be prevented any more from moving from GB to Northern Ireland. What is going to happen after those dates? How exactly are businesses going to be able to prepare when they have not yet seen the detailed arrangements, because the Joint Committee is not going to meet for a couple of days, and when those details may well change yet again in a few months’ time?

[Michael Gove]

I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his questions—and indeed for the work of his Future Relationship with the European Union Committee, which has helped us as we have sought to resolve these issues—and his welcome is very welcome. On the detailed points he makes, we have been talking to traders, supermarkets in particular, to make sure that they are ready for any export health certificate requirements. We know that some supermarkets are already ready. One or two others need time in order to get ready, and they requested a grace period. Originally, those in the Commission argued that that would be impossible or, if it did exist, that it could only be a matter of weeks. We have managed to secure three months, which is sufficient time, we understand, to ensure that supermarkets are ready. On the chilled meat provision, it is the case that we have secured a six-month period during which there will be absolutely no change. Again, it was the case that there were some in the EU who argued that that should be a strictly non-renewable provision. We secured an approach that meant we could keep under review how things were operating in order to ensure that we provided people in Northern Ireland with access to the food they currently enjoy, without any disruption to the integrated supply chains that supermarkets have and which they will adjust.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Thursday 12th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

I think that the hon. Gentleman might be referring to Belarus, of course, with his last question, but let me assure him that the United Kingdom Government remain strong, resolute and committed to delivering on the will of the British people. In particular, the Union, which has provided for 300 years an example of people coming together in a spirit of solidarity to proclaim the values of democracy, human rights and liberalism, will endure for many decades to come.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

We now learn that the First Minister and her deputy have said that there is a “real threat” to the continuity of food supplies in Northern Ireland. The Road Haulage Association has described border preparations as “frankly pathetic”. The customs declaration service probably will not be ready in time, and the NAO has warned that widespread disruption for 1 January is likely. Given that the right hon. Gentleman has repeatedly assured the House that it will all be fine, why does he think so many other people do not share his optimism?

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. His Committee on the Future Relationship with the European Union has done extensive work drawing attention to the preparations that are required to be made. There are still significant preparations that we and businesses need to make to conclude our preparedness, which is why later today, I will be meeting representatives from business representative organisations, including the CBI and others, to ensure that everything possible is being done to prepare for the changes. I do not shirk from acknowledging that there are challenges we all face in the run-up to the end of the transition period, but there are also significant opportunities for which the British people voted and which we are pledged to deliver.

EU Exit: Negotiations and the Joint Committee

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Monday 19th October 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My right hon. Friend makes two very important points, the first of which relates to the approach that the European Union has taken. As I mentioned, even while I have been at the Dispatch Box it has been reported that there has been a constructive move on the part of the European Union, and I welcome that. Obviously we need to make sure that we work on the basis of the proposed intensification that it proposes. I prefer to look forward in optimism rather than necessarily to look back in anger. However, as he says, the difficult period that we have had over the past two weeks has been the result of some on the EU side not being as energetic as we have been in trying to reach agreement. He also makes an important point about making sure that we iron out all the difficulties in the withdrawal agreement. That is part of my role in the Joint Committee. I am grateful to him and to others for the advice they have offered as to how we should approach these difficult issues.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Despite what the Minister said in his opening remarks, it is quite clear that negotiations are continuing, and the war of words now needs to stop. Both sides need to get together and agree a deal, recognising that both will have to compromise. On preparations for 1 January, given that businesses do not know exactly how trade between GB and Northern Ireland is going to work—the pharmaceuticals industry does not have a clue—and given that the goods movement IT system is not yet in operation because it is not ready, while nowhere near enough customs agents have yet been recruited, why is it the Government’s approach to say to firms that they have their head in the sand and are not ready, when the Government cannot tell them exactly what they are meant to be getting ready for?

[Michael Gove]

I actually think that is a fair question that contains at least two very important pieces of wisdom. On the first, the EU took a position last week and in the weeks beforehand that was, as was widely acknowledged, not constructive, not designed to achieve progress, and not engaging with the detail. If, as a result of our clear view that we could not proceed on that basis, there has been movement, as it seems as though there has been today, then no one will welcome it more than me. But we cannot have from the EU the illusion of engagement without the reality of compromise: I completely agree with the right hon. Gentleman on that.

On the second point, yes, both with regard to trade in Northern Ireland and more broadly, there are aspects that need to be worked out. That is why we want to intensify these negotiations. If occasionally, in the crossfire between different parts of business, Government and others, different people express their frustration, that is fine. The most important thing is that we make sure that we work together in order to deliver.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Thursday 1st October 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that question. If I may gently correct him, we do put the interests of the automotive sector front and centre. When it comes to rules of origin, diagonal cumulation or seeking a tariff-free and quota-free deal, that is at the heart of our negotiating approach, and the interests of his constituents are at the heart of the approach that Lord Frost is taking.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Yesterday, the Committee on the Future Relationship with the European Union was told by representatives of the UK chemicals industry that the cost to the sector of registering all chemicals under the new UK REACH system after 1 January will be about £1 billion because of the Government’s negotiating decisions. Can the right hon. Gentleman explain why, in the midst of an economic crisis, the Government have chosen to impose such enormous costs and red tape, to no benefit whatsoever, on one of our most important and successful industries?

[Michael Gove]

The right hon. Gentleman is right that the chemicals sector is one of the many economic success stories of the United Kingdom. It is an inevitable consequence of leaving the European Union single market and customs union and freeing ourselves from the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union that we have to have our own regulatory systems in place. They will enable us to be competitive and to take advantage of increased autonomy and independence in the future. One of the great prizes of leaving the European Union is that, when it comes to life sciences and other areas, we will be freed from the often anti- science and anti-innovation approach that the EU has had hitherto.

--- Later in debate ---

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. As I said earlier, there was a Cobra meeting just last week at which the First Minister of Wales was an important and constructive participant, and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister talked to the First Minister prior to that. I enjoy my regular conversations with the First Ministers of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. I think I have probably spoken to the First Minister of Wales more often in the past couple of months than I have to my own mum and dad, and that is a reflection of the high regard in which I hold the First Minister of Wales, not of any lack of regard for my parents in Aberdeen.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Last week the right hon. Gentleman told the House that the two IT systems that will be crucial to enabling goods to move across the border from 1 January—namely the goods vehicle movement service and smart freight—“are in operation.” Later that day, the chief executive of the Road Haulage Association wrote that these were “absolutely not in operation.” I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman would like to clarify what he meant.

[Michael Gove]

Yes of course. I have found that the Road Haulage Association, valuable organisation though it may be, has not always necessarily been the most constructive partner at every stage in the conversations that we needed to have. Nevertheless, I think it is the case that we are having conversations with it and others to ensure that these and the other IT systems that we need for the end of the transition period are in place.

EU Exit: End of Transition Period

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Wednesday 23rd September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise that issue. It is because of the EU’s mishandling of the Airbus project that the US imposed tariffs on malt whisky that did not exist beforehand, hitting one of Scotland’s most important exports. My right hon. Friend the International Trade Secretary has been negotiating on Scotland’s behalf directly with the US to see those tariffs lifted. She has already secured progress on gin and I hope that she will secure progress on whisky. The excellent Karen Betts, chief executive of the Scotch Whisky Association, has been appointed explicitly as an adviser to the Secretary of State to help ensure that the UK Government, with their negotiating weight, can do for the Scotch whisky industry what the EU was not capable of doing.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his statement, although a queue of 7,000 lorries would not be much of a great prize for the country. As he knows, for months, those who move goods for a living across the short straits have been warning Ministers that systems and training will not be ready in time. Now the industry says that it is being “fitted up” to take the blame for the Government’s failure to grasp, in the words of one logistics expert involved in the talks, “real-world complexities”. The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster just told the House that the Goods Vehicle Movement Service and the Smart Freight IT systems are in operation. When did that happen?

[Michael Gove]

They have been developed. They are in operation now. We are refining with business exactly how they should operate for businesses’ benefit.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Thursday 16th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

Continued participation in Erasmus is one of the negotiating requests that our team are making. We will find out from the EU the terms on which it is happy to grant continued access. We have acknowledged that we may continue to be a net contributor to schemes such as Erasmus and Horizon 2020, but it is also important that we continue to collaborate with other countries beyond the continent of Europe when it comes to education and science.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

On Monday, when asked about a lorry park in Ashford, the right hon. Gentleman told the House:

“It is not the case that any specific site has been absolutely confirmed. We are in commercial negotiations with a number of sites”—[Official Report, 13 July 2020; Vol. 678, c. 1278.]

So can he answer a specific question: how many sites in Kent is he looking at to put infrastructure on? How many of those sites will be to check the paperwork of goods leaving the UK and how many will be to check goods coming into the UK, because, as we all know, there is no space to do that at Dover?

[Michael Gove]

We were looking at five sites, and yesterday the Department for Transport confirmed that a site at Ashford has been secured. These sites are there to facilitate traffic management and the flow of goods out of the country. When it comes to the appropriate checks on goods coming into the country, at Calais the French authorities will be seeking to check export declarations.

EU Exit: End of Transition Period

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Monday 13th July 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. It was the democratic decision of the whole United Kingdom to leave the European Union. There are significant opportunities, and one of the points that I alluded to in my statement is that, as businesses prepare for the export requirements that will be needed when we are outside the customs union, that will also equip them all the more powerfully for the new trading opportunities that exist across the globe.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman says that he is not intending to create a massive concrete lorry park in Ashford. I would gently point out that if the lorries arriving there do not park up and stop, it will be very hard for people to check their paperwork, so the lorries will be parking. Will he clarify something about the site? Will it be used just to check that lorries leaving the UK have the right paperwork, so that they do not clog up the system at Dover and Calais, or will it be used for checks on goods coming into the UK in lorries—or both? And will it be operational, along with the goods vehicle movement service IT system, by the end of this year?

[Michael Gove]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, because he gives me a chance to clarify a number of points. The hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) suggested that we will be building a lorry park at Dover, but as the right hon. Gentleman points out, we are moving infrastructure away from the port. As the chief executive of the port of Dover, Tim Reardon, pointed out to his Committee,

“one of the most helpful things that came out of the Government’s announcement…was the commitment to construct new control infrastructure away from the port…away from the key pinch point”.

Combined with the GVMS system, to which the right hon. Gentleman alludes, that will ensure that we have a free flow of freight and none of the anticipated problems that have been mentioned. That investment in infrastructure will ensure that lorries move out of the UK to the EU with our high-quality goods.

Civil Service Appointments

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Tuesday 30th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Sir Mark Sedwill steps down at the end of September and will be replaced as National Security Adviser by David Frost, who will also remain the EU chief negotiator, which he says will be his “top single priority” until the negotiations have concluded. If the negotiations carry on into October and beyond, who will have the nation’s security as their top single priority, or is this just a case of misapplied persistent experimentation?

[Michael Gove]

Like me, the right hon. Gentleman is a believer in experimentation, scientific method, empiricism and pragmatism. As we both know, the negotiations with the European Union are accelerating at the moment, as both sides seek to find a conclusion over the course of the next five weeks.

UK-EU Negotiations

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Tuesday 16th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend is right; should we not secure a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU, we will be free to trade, not just with the EU, but with other nations, to our advantage.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

The Government’s decision to abandon the introduction of full customs checks and controls on EU imports from 1 January is a recognition that firms are simply not ready, yet the right hon. Gentleman knows that, regardless of whether an agreement is reached with the EU or not, British businesses will face checks, controls and red tape on exports to the EU from January. Given his decision, and given coronavirus, why does he think British businesses will be able to cope with that?

[Michael Gove]

British businesses responded warmly to the announcement we made on Friday as a pragmatic and flexible approach. The only alternative to the approach we outlined would be to extend the transition period. I know that is the position of the Labour party in London and in Wales, but we do not know what the position of the Labour party in London and in Leeds is. [Hon. Members: “What?”] We do not know the position of the Labour Front-Bench and the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn).

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Thursday 11th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

Not only was our deal oven-ready, but anything that goes into UK ovens will always meet high quality standards. More to the point, the Paymaster General and I, and the whole of Government, are like peas in a pod. We are committed to making sure that high animal welfare and environmental standards continue to characterise British farming, which is the best in the world.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

We all know that the right hon. Gentleman is not very keen on economic forecasts, but given the growing warnings from business—the latest today has come from the CBI—he must be aware of the damage that would be inflicted on businesses by red tape, tariffs and loss of access if there is no agreement reached with the European Union in the next four months. We all want a deal, but, with British businesses already reeling from coronavirus, what does he propose to say to those businesses come January if the Government’s gamble does not pay off?

[Michael Gove]

The Government are not gambling. The Government are holding the European Union to account for its commitment to secure a zero-tariff, zero-quota deal and to use its best endeavours, and I have confidence that the European Union will do that.

EU-UK Partnership: EU’s Mandate

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Thursday 4th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove)]

I beg to move,

That this House, having regard to the constitutional and legal functions enshrined in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and the European Union (Withdrawal Agreement) Act 2020, urges the Government to conduct its negotiations with the European Union with the fullest possible transparency to facilitate essential parliamentary scrutiny; also urges the Government to make regular progress reports on the negotiations, including on stakeholder contributions to the consultation on The Future Relationship with the EU: the UK’s Approach to Negotiations, and to address the issues identified by the European Scrutiny Committee in its Fifth Report of Session 2019–21, HC 333, as matters of vital national interest.

I am delighted to be opening this important debate. In particular, I would like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Sir William Cash). I am sure the House will be aware that, having first been elected in 1984, he has been a distinguished campaigner on a number of issues, including improving the UK’s role in overseas development. Above all, he will be remembered for his commitment to restoring the sovereignty of this House. For more than 35 years he has served on the European Scrutiny Committee, which he now chairs. Having served on it for a brief period when I was a Back Bencher in the 2005 to 2010 Parliament, I can say that his attention to detail, his commitment to this House and his service to the country are things that all of us should recognise and applaud.

The motion we are considering today asks the Government to do three things: to negotiate transparently in order to ease the way for essential parliamentary scrutiny of the Executive; to provide regular reports on the progress of the negotiations; and to address the issues raised specifically by the European Scrutiny Committee about the impact of legislation being passed at European Union level while we are in the transition period, not fully part of the EU but of course subject to its acquis.

With respect to the transparency of our negotiations, it is the case that a Command Paper was published earlier this year outlining the approach that the UK Government would take towards the negotiations. I made an oral statement in this House to outline our approach. Since that time, the UK Government have outlined their approach in detail by the publication of draft texts covering not just our future economic partnership but areas such as fisheries and security. The publication of those draft texts has also been accompanied by my appearance alongside David Frost, the Prime Minister’s sherpa and EU negotiator, in front of the Select Committee of the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) on the future relationship with the European Union on three occasions, in front of the House of Lords Select Committee covering European affairs on two occasions and, of course, in front of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee on one occasion as well.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

The document to which the right hon. Gentleman has just referred makes it clear that the Government want an agreement that involves no tariffs, but in the interests of transparency, will he explain to the House why the Government are prepared to contemplate tariffs being imposed from 1 January next year, when he will know that the president of the National Farmers Union has described that prospect as catastrophic for the industry, and that only this week the chief operating officer of Nissan has warned that the Sunderland plant would not be sustainable if tariffs on car exports transpire?

[Michael Gove]

The right hon Gentleman is right; it is our intention. Indeed, it is a commitment in the political declaration that accompanies the withdrawal agreement that both sides will work towards ensuring that we have a zero-tariff, zero-quota approach. One of the problems we face is that the European Union is placing an unprecedented demand on the United Kingdom, which is that in order to secure that zero-tariff, zero-quota approach, we accept a suite of commitments—the so-called level playing field commitments—that would place obligations on the UK Government and our institutions to follow EU law in a way that no other sovereign nation would and in a way that no other free trade agreement requires. That takes us to the heart of the UK’s approach.

In all these appearances and opportunities in which the House has allowed me, on behalf of the Government, to explain our approach, we have taken a consistent line, and that is in keeping with the political declaration. We want a free trade agreement with the European Union, and the free trade agreement that we seek is built on precedent. There is nothing novel, outrageous or excessive about our requests, and the free trade agreement that we seek is, as I say, one that builds on precedents from Canada, Japan and South Korea and agreements that other sovereign nations have entered into with the EU.

The challenge that we face, however, is that the European Union argues that, because of the size of our market and our geographical proximity, we should be subject to rules of the club that we have left, which they impose on no other sovereign nation. At the same time, the EU insists that in the hugely important area of fisheries, it should continue to have access on terms that are similar, if not identical, to the common fisheries policy, which so many people in this country recognise as having worked against the interests of our coastal communities and of marine conservation.

It is on that basis that the fourth round of negotiations is currently being conducted. David Frost, our negotiator, is negotiating hard today, and I am sure that Michel Barnier will update us with his perspective on these negotiations tomorrow. We will also be laying a written ministerial statement next week and, of course, should the House require any further updates on the progress of the negotiations, I would be delighted to give them.

Northern Ireland Protocol: UK Approach

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Wednesday 20th May 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

We will of course work to make sure that IT systems are efficient and compatible and consult with business. In fact, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has a business roundtable this afternoon. Engagement with Northern Ireland’s citizens and its many small and medium-sized enterprises is critical to making everything work.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab) [V]]

We all hope there will be an exit agreement with the EU, but if there is not, how will the Government stop goods, such as cars made in the EU, which in those circumstances would attract a 10% tariff, from entering Great Britain tariff-free via Northern Ireland? The right hon. Gentleman has told the House that goods would have unfettered access moving from Northern Ireland to GB. Would there in fact have to be checks if people tried to do that?

[Michael Gove]

We will have market surveillance, and if people try to break the law, they will face the consequences.

Ministerial Code

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Monday 2nd March 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The key—[Interruption.] I see no reason why, in a debate in which we are considering the importance of civility, people should attempt to criticise my hon. Friend for asking a fair and robust question. She has made a critically important point. It is Ministers who are publicly and electorally accountable. Ministers hold office as a result of a general election, and it is important that we respect the popular will and the popular mandate of any Government in making sure that the people’s priorities are delivered.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Were any complaints received by Downing Street in respect of the conduct of the current Home Secretary when she was Secretary of State for International Development or when she was a Minister in the Department for Work and Pensions, and if so, were they investigated?

[Michael Gove]

The inquiry that is proceeding will look at all complaints that may have been made. I cannot say more than that.

European Union: Future Relationship

Debate between Hilary Benn and Michael Gove

Thursday 27th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

Yes, that is absolutely right. As I mentioned, a number of EU leaders have said that a deal is doable because we are operating on the basis of precedent, and it should then be possible to conclude all the necessary agreements. Having concluded these agreements by the end of this year, we can then move on to deepening the many bilateral and multilateral relationships that we have with our friends and partners in Europe to the benefit of all.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman referred to other deals that he is hoping to emulate. He will be aware that the EU’s deal with South Korea took eight years from the start of negotiations to implementation and that the Canada deal took seven. Given that the Government are seeking a much more comprehensive arrangement than either of those, his optimism that it can be done and ratified in 10 months remains to be proven, but will he confirm that if it is not possible to conclude a deal, we will exit the transition period on 31 December with no agreement whatsoever?

[Michael Gove]

We already have an agreement—a withdrawal agreement that safeguards the rights of UK and EU citizens, settles our financial obligations and makes provision through the protocol for Northern Ireland’s position. As for the free trade agreements to which the right hon. Gentleman refers, it is more difficult to begin when one is designing a prototype; now that the prototypes exist and have become precedents, it is much easier to replicate their provisions.