Scam Mailing

Debate between Heather Wheeler and George Hollingbery

Wednesday 30th January 2013 Westminster Hall

[Heather Wheeler]

The hon. Lady is of course right. If she would like to apply for a Westminster Hall debate on that issue, I would gladly support her. I think the internet may be one byte too many for my 25-minute speech, but I am sure that the Minister, with her breadth of knowledge, will come on to that.

One Bill to amend the three relevant Acts could cover the issue. There is no doubt which organisation is best placed to detect scam marketing—Royal Mail, which says that scam mail is easy to identify both before and when the scam takes place. It wants to be able to pass on the details of suspected victims to trading standards, but its staff feel duty bound, even while observing the scams happening, to observe the Data Protection Act 1998, the Postal Services Act 2000 and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000, and not intervene and report the names and addresses of those they believe are being scammed. Those three Acts place obligations on the Royal Mail that, although well intentioned, often run contrary to the detection and prevention of fraud.

The seemingly simple approach of Royal Mail reporting suspicious mail to trading standards officers is particularly hampered because there is some disagreement as to whether disclosure of the victim’s details by Royal Mail is permissible under section 29 of the Data Protection Act 1998. The legal advice received by trading standards is that disclosure of potential scam victims’ details by the Royal Mail is already permitted under section 29 of the Data Protection Act 1998, which says that information can be released if it is in connection with

“the prevention or detection of crime”

or

“the apprehension or prosecution of offenders”.

However, the legal advice obtained by Royal Mail itself contradicts that view, which reminds me of a friend’s quip that if someone asks 10 lawyers a question they will get 20 different answers.

Royal Mail states that it would be a breach of the Data Protection Act 1998 to release details of suspected victims to a trading standards officer, and therefore it does not do so. Consequently, there is complete confusion about what powers Royal Mail has to report suspected scams to the body that is best placed to investigate. However, a Bill could be brought forward to introduce an amendment to the Postal Services Act 2000 and to the Data Protection Act 1998, in order to provide a legal gateway for the release of that information and for Parliament to enable Royal Mail to act against scam mail.

That brings me to the third issue, which is enhanced powers of interception. At the moment, in order to intercept and report scam mail, the Royal Mail, the police or those officials seeking to investigate scams or enforce existing legislation must secure a warrant from my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary to intercept post in the course of its transmission. To issue a warrant, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary would need to be satisfied that it was necessary for the purposes of detecting serious crime, which would need substantial proof. That is understandable given the need to protect privacy, data and even human rights. However, the almost sacrosanct nature that post in transmission enjoys is also a charter for the scammer to carry on defrauding.

Like the legislative patchwork quilt, that burdensome approach is well intentioned but it also works against consumer interests. Again, it could be tackled by an Act of Parliament that gives new powers of interception. However, enhancing powers of interception naturally raises questions about protection of privacy and data. If interception powers were to be introduced without the need for a warrant, there would have to be appropriate safeguards against breaches of human rights. Such powers would need to be controlled using the existing authorisation process, but perhaps with the final power of decision resting at a sufficiently high level to ensure that the tests of necessity and proportionality are satisfied, without needing to trouble my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary. After all, should she not be dealing with matters of national security, defeating terrorism and managing our law enforcement agencies?

[George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con)]

Hear, hear.

[Heather Wheeler]

Exactly; I thank my hon. Friend for that. As I was saying, should my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary not be dealing with matters of national security rather than being asked if a postal worker can report the name and address of someone who he or she has genuine reason to believe is a victim of scam mail?

Adult Social Care

Debate between Heather Wheeler and George Hollingbery

Thursday 8th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) and the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) on bringing this debate to the House.

In South Derbyshire, social care is a very big issue, and I praise Derbyshire county council for grasping it with both hands. For the first time, an older people’s village is being built in my constituency, in Swadlincote. It will take anybody over the age of 55 when they do not need any care, until they need intermediate care, and then right until the end when they need dementia care. It is an absolutely brilliant new way of coping with care for the elderly, and I congratulate the council. Interestingly, there is now a strong debate about the typical old people’s homes that councils have run over the years, and people are concerned that the new style of looking after people will have to bed in a bit.

What is important about the older people’s village is not only that people will choose to buy or rent flats in it, or be put there by the state if they cannot afford it, but that respite beds will be available so that carers can have a break. People can have step-down or step-up beds, get themselves well again, and be able to look after themselves with total 24-hour care.

[George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con)]

I want to develop my hon. Friend’s point a little more generally. As many colleagues will know, I am something of a bore on planning, but I think that the planning system has an important role to play in this in future. Does she agree that neighbourhood plans—the new local plans that are coming forward—are an essential part of catering for the needs of the elderly on an ongoing, 20 to 25-year basis?

[Heather Wheeler]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for widening out the possibilities of my speech. I agree with him. As leaders in our areas, we need to direct people, as part of the consultations with their local development frameworks, to say, “This area could be zoned for bungalows”, or “That area could be zoned for an older people’s village”, or “That area, particularly if it has a section 106 agreement, could have some money allocated not only for the police, for education, or for a children’s play area, but for areas for older people.” We have recently had a planning application approved for a village for 2,500 people on a brownfield site, which included a zoned area for older people. The person who had the brilliant idea of building the village was inspired to do so by what he had seen his older relatives go through in their later years. He wanted to take a completely —dare I say it—holistic approach so that such people could in future grow old gracefully.

As well as championing what Derbyshire county council is doing on my patch, in connection with Trident Housing Association and South Derbyshire district council, I am also chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on local government. We will be conducting a new inquiry into social care, which will dovetail with the findings of the Dilnot report. We hope that, as an all-party group, we will be able to examine the issue a bit more widely and think outside the box, in order to be helpful to Ministers and give them as many ideas as possible. I know that a number of Members who are in the Chamber today will be sitting on that inquiry with me, and I am grateful for the all-party support.

When the Minister of State, Department of Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) came to speak to the all-party group, the room was packed. There were 70 people there, which is pretty good going for 2.30 on a Monday afternoon. People came from all over the country to hear him. It was a very uplifting afternoon, and I am grateful to him for giving us so much of his time.

This is an important issue for all of us, but it has been kicked around like a political football. The deficit is horrendous, and we all know that there really is not enough money in the world to deal with the problem, but the mood in the House leads me to hope that we will have some answers before the next general election in 2015. We need to put those answers on the table and get this done, for everyone.