Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Greg Mulholland and Simon Burns

Tuesday 17th July 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Burns]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend; this is the hors d’oeuvre before the main meal later today. Ultimately, if any overview and scrutiny committees of relevant local authorities do not agree with the final decisions, they have a right to write to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State asking him to refer the matter, with their concerns, to the Independent Reconfiguration Panel. If it is asked to look into the matter, it will then come to a conclusion, of which it will inform my right hon. Friend and he will then take a decision.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

The Scottish Government have decided that although the Yorkhill unit is currently unsafe, it can be made safe in the context of three surgeons doing 300 operations, whereas the “Safe and Sustainable” review, which is increasingly discredited, is demanding 400 to 500 operations. Why is it one rule for children in Scotland and another for children in Yorkshire?

[Mr Burns]

I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that the decisions that the Scottish Government and the Scottish Health Department might take with regard to Glasgow is a matter for them. The fact is that we recognise what is commonly accepted among the international community: that the safest way of providing that surgery is by carrying out about 400 operations a year.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Greg Mulholland and Simon Burns

Tuesday 10th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Burns]

As I have said, the review is clinically led and independent of Government, and I am afraid that it would not be appropriate for me, or my colleagues, to intervene. Moreover, the review is the subject of legal proceedings. It will be for the Joint Committee of Primary Care Trusts, on behalf of local commissioners, to decide the future pattern of children’s heart services on the basis of the best available evidence.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

It seems nonsensical to deal with the provision of surgical services for adult and child congenital cardiac patients in separate reviews. Given the delay in the review of children’s services, does the Minister not agree that it is time to consider including them in the forthcoming review of adult services?

[Mr Burns]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his suggestion, but I am afraid that I do not share his view. As he knows, there will be a review of adult services, but it has always been considered most appropriate to deal with paediatric cardiac services before adult care, and that is what we will continue to do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Greg Mulholland and Simon Burns

Tuesday 22nd November 2011 Commons Chamber

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

The recent judicial review concerning the unit at the Royal Brompton hospital said that the Safe and Sustainable consultation was unlawful and the review should be quashed. Considering the concern about this matter and the flaws in the review, is it not time for the Minister to indicate when the Government might intervene? Otherwise, there could be further threats of judicial review.

[Mr Simon Burns]

The straightforward answer is no, because the Joint Committee of Primary Care Trusts has said that it intends to appeal. This is an independent review. It would be inappropriate for me or any other Minister to interfere in such a review, because we could be accused of compromising its independence.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Greg Mulholland and Simon Burns

Tuesday 12th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Burns]

Yes, I can give the hon. Gentleman a categorical assurance on that.

[Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)]

Further to the previous question, if there are further options in addition to the four already presented, I ask that the Government do not rule out looking at the matter again if it is shown that it is possible for Leeds and Newcastle to serve the north of England.

[Mr Burns]

As the hon. Gentleman will appreciate, I do not want to be drawn into that too far because this is an independent assessment by the joint committee of primary care trusts and I do not want to be seen to be interfering, but I can say that neither we nor the JCPCT have ever said categorically exactly how many centres there should be. It will be up to the JCPCT, as it considers the representations it receives, to decide how many there should be. If it decides to have more than four, it would not need the processes that he is suggesting because it has the power within its remit to increase the number if it thinks circumstances warrant it.

Congenital Cardiac Services for Children

Debate between Greg Mulholland and Simon Burns

Thursday 23rd June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Burns]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for that intervention. With regard to Leeds teaching hospital, he will know that this is a complex issue. There are 36 different surgical procedures listed on the central cardiac audit database, but the three most relevant ones in the context of his question are those that deal with atrioventricular septal defect, arterial switch and Fallot’s tetralogy. Over the past six years, 304 operations have taken place involving those three specialties. Sadly, the number of patients who died within 30 days was 12, and 18 died within one year. The results of surgery in all units are good, with no significant divergence. The issue, however, is the future. We need to prepare for units that can deal with these highly complex procedures and the intense technology needed, and provide the qualified doctors and nurses involved, in order to keep up with professional and public expectations of the high quality of care required. This is not so much about today’s figures as about how we meet the challenges of the future to provide the finest and safest possible care in this deeply complex area of medical treatment.

The consensus among professional associations is that there should be no fewer than four congenital surgeons in a centre, each performing between 100 and 125 procedures every year, for a centre to be optimally staffed. Over the past few years, the outcomes for the services have remained good, as the figures that I have just given to my right hon. Friend illustrate, but there have been several warning signs that the current arrangements are fragile. For many years, professionals and national children’s charities, including the Children’s Heart Federation and the British Heart Foundation, have urged the NHS to review services for children with congenital heart disease. They have consistently raised serious concerns about the risks posed by the unsustainable and sub-optimal nature of smaller surgical centres.

Many of the 150 types of operation undertaken by these dedicated teams are among the most complex, challenging and technically demanding areas of surgery. Success requires intricate surgery on hearts often no bigger than a walnut, coupled with finely balanced judgments drawn from a combination of advancing science, personal experience and compassion. It involves a range of highly trained individual team members—before, during and after the operation.

The risks posed by the complex nature of heart surgery include not just possible death after surgery, but lifelong complications such as brain damage and other disabilities. The judgments of any expert medical team caring for a particular child therefore have a direct and long-lasting impact not only the future of each vulnerable child, but on that of their families.

There is also the issue of recruitment. The fact is that smaller centres have problems with recruiting and retaining the very best surgeons. There is a risk that those working in smaller centres will find themselves working in isolation and in units that are not as up-to-date with techniques and clinical practice as the larger ones are.

[Greg Mulholland]

We all understand the premise of the review about the need to move to larger centres, but does the Minister not understand—I am not trying to draw him—the real concern when Leeds is performing 370 procedures a year and Newcastle, a smaller unit, performed only 255 last year, yet Newcastle is in all four options and Leeds only in one?

[Mr Burns]

I fully appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s point, but I hope that he will appreciate that he is now trying to draw me into a discussion on the merits of Leeds as against Newcastle. As I said earlier, it is inappropriate for me as a Minister to do that. However, it is a point that the hon. Gentleman, my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey and others can make more than adequately to the joint committee, which will be able to determine the merits of the argument prior to reaching a decision. I urge the hon. Gentleman to understand how inappropriate it would be for me to go down the route of arguing the merits or demerits of one area or another.

Smaller centres struggle to train and mentor junior surgeons, making these units less attractive to the senior surgeons of tomorrow and making it difficult to provide a safe 24-hour service. We must ensure that our surgeons and their teams are well supported. They need opportunities to develop their experience as they become increasingly expert in these intricate and complex procedures. We must ensure that all the hospitals that provide heart surgery for children can also provide care within safe medical rotas.

No parent would wish the care of their child to be entrusted to a surgeon who, though an excellent doctor, is overly tired because they have had to work around the clock without any peer support. This means that to reduce the risk of surgery in sick children and to improve their long-term outcomes, we must focus our surgical expertise in larger centres. The need has become ever more pressing with the increasing complexity of treatment.

As hon. Members will know, the national review is known as the Safe and Sustainable review. Its aim is to ensure that children’s heart services deliver the very highest standard of care. The NHS must use its skills and resources collectively to gain the best outcomes for patients. As I stated at the beginning of my speech, in line with the Government’s entire approach to the NHS, this review is both independent and clinically led. May I reassure hon. Members that the objective of the review is not to close children’s heart centres? Far from it. While surgery may cease in some centres, they will continue to provide specialist, non-interventional services for their local population.

Indeed, the review proposes to extend local care further, supported by the professional associations that support the increased clinical expertise across England. This wider support is crucial. Surgery is usually a single, short episode in what is often a lifelong relationship with specialist congenital heart services. The aim is to improve those services as a whole and to ensure that as much non-surgical care as possible is delivered as close to the child’s home as possible through the development of local congenital heart networks. These will enable children to be safely and expertly cared for nearer to home in the longer term.

Given the complexity of the issues for consideration, the NHS has held a four-month, rather than the usual three-month, consultation. Hon. Members should be reassured that the consultation process has been impressive in its scope, inclusiveness and transparency.