National Planning Policy Framework
Debate between Greg Clark and Joan Walley
Greg Clark
My hon. Friend will be pleased that the revised framework includes a recognition of the intrinsic value of the countryside, reflecting its beauty, whether or not it is designated nationally, so it will have that protection.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
I welcome the fact that we will have the opportunity to debate the changes when the House comes back from the recess. However, given that the changes will take effect from today, what assurances will the right hon. Gentleman give the House about transitional arrangements for the almost 60% of local authorities that do not have local plans in place? Is it not the fact that, despite what he says, economic development will trump sustainability on every occasion?
Greg Clark
I thank the hon. Lady for the contribution of the Environmental Audit Committee. It provided a serious consideration of the matter and she will see that we have taken it in that spirit. The transitional arrangements, which were agreed with the Local Government Association, give weight to emerging plans. Although only about half of the plans are close to adoption, most places in the country have plans that are well advanced in preparation. At the suggestion of the LGA, we said to the Communities and Local Government Committee, chaired by the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), that we should give weight to the policies in emerging plans, so that they can be relied upon. That will take place from today.
Localism Bill
Debate between Greg Clark and Joan Walley(12 years, 12 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Greg Clark
Among the areas where centralisation has increased over the years is in the planning system. The regional spatial strategies, whatever their intentions, clearly took power from local communities. We made good progress in Committee in addressing the replacement for regional strategies in dealing with larger than local matters. The Bill introduces more opportunities for neighbourhoods through neighbourhood planning, and brings in compulsory pre-application scrutiny.
As we have worked through, we have established a good deal of common ground. The Committee debate focused on the duty to co-operate. Informed by the Royal Town Planning Institute and discussions across the Front Benches, we listened to the Committee and, as we indicated on Report, made various changes that have been reflected in the Bill as it left the House. We said on Report that the neighbourhood planning section would be amended in the House of Lords. We considered carefully suggestions made from all parts of the House, and the amendments before us today reflect that.
It is important to say that we want to see more planning, not less. We feel that over time the imposition from above has stood in the way of local communities expressing their own vision of the future of their community. That is what we want to give them a greater chance to do. At the heart of that is the need to achieve sustainable development. Section 39 of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004 provides a duty on those preparing local plans to do so with the aim of contributing to the achievement of sustainable development.
Amendment 370 extends that principle to neighbourhood planning, with an explicit condition that it should contribute to the achievement of sustainable development. The duty to co-operate will require that public bodies should co-operate effectively on sustainable development. We debated in Committee whether to include the definition of sustainable development on the face of the Bill or whether it should be in guidance. I made a commitment to think seriously about that, which we did. We had various discussions in the other place involving Members on both sides of the House.
Let me say at the outset that there is no issue in principle with the definition proposed by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey) and the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) in their amendment (a). It reflects the 2005 sustainable development strategy, which has not been repealed. In evidence not to the Select Committee chaired by the hon. Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), to which I shall be giving evidence later in the week, but to the Environmental Audit Committee I and a DEFRA Minister made it clear that the 2005 strategy remains extant and we have no difficulty with the content of it. Of course, that has been captured in previous guidance—PPS1 in particular—and was updated from the first iteration of the sustainable development strategy in 1999.
There was a serious debate in the other place about whether the best place to reflect the shared view of sustainable development is on the face of the Bill, or whether that should be, as it always has been, in guidance. On Report there was some concern that a statutory definition makes it difficult to capture the full range of aspects of sustainability, which may include but go beyond some of the provisions in the sustainable development strategy. I happen to think, and I have said to the Environmental Audit Committee, that some of the thinking in the natural environment White Paper makes some helpful suggestions that one should be looking for a net gain for nature. It is important to be open to that.
In the other place, Baroness Andrews, the chairman of English Heritage and a recent former planning Minister, made some of the same arguments about heritage. She said:
“I feel strongly that one of the elements that is not in this amendment”—
the amendment before us is similar or even identical to the one that was considered in the other place—
“. . . is including something about our vital cultural and heritage needs, including those of future generations.”
She went on to say that
“one might add, for example, ‘meeting the diverse social, cultural, heritage needs of all people in existing and future communities and promoting well-being and social cohesion and inclusion’.”
The noble Lady said that
“if we are to debate the amendment”,
the Minister should consider whether the definition could be sufficiently flexible to include
“the new elements of the definition.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 12 October 2011; Vol. 730, c. 1750.]
I cite that as an example of someone who shares our good will on that point and has recent experience in government of planning and of some of the difficulties.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
I hear what the Minister says about Baroness Andrews, but the Government’s response to the Environmental Audit Committee’s report stated:
“The Government agrees that we should put the pursuit of sustainable development right at the heart of the planning system’s objectives and operation, and that we should be clear about what this commitment means in practice.”
How can they be clear about that if it is not in the Bill?
Greg Clark
I hope to convince the hon. Lady when I say more on that in a few minutes. As we are considering Lords amendments, I will reflect on the conclusions that were drawn after extensive debates on all these issues in the House of Lords and what its settled view was. Lord Howarth of Newport, a Labour peer, said:
“Like other noble Lords I do not think that it is appropriate to attempt a full definition on the face of primary legislation because… the right place for that is guidance.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 31 October 2011; Vol. 731, c. 1078.]
The Opposition spokesman, Lords McKenzie of Luton, in summing up, said:
“We accept that definitions are not going to be included in the Bill but I hope that at least we shall be able to get very strong assurances that there will be full definitions in the NPPF.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 31 October 2011; Vol. 731, c. 1076.]
At the end of the debate, he said that he was happy to withdraw the same amendment because my noble Friend Baroness Hanham had
“given the strongest degree of reassurance I have heard to date on the issue.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 31 October 2011; Vol. 731, c. 1088.]
A view was reached in the House of Lords on the basis of assurances that my noble Friend gave. I will not quote from some of the other reflections, but some colleagues there said that this went even further than they had expected.
In answer to the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley), the Government are committed to a clear definition of sustainable development and think that policy is the right place for it. I have said clearly that we have no difficulties with the 2005 definition, which I think is ably reflected in the amendment. Hon. Members will know that I cannot pre-empt the consultation on the NPPF, but in all the deliberations we have had on the Bill my assurances about the Government’s good faith have always been reflected and brought to a final conclusion. I hope that Opposition Front Benchers will bear that in mind.
National Planning Policy Framework
Debate between Greg Clark and Joan Walley
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
This is an interesting and important debate, not least because it comes in the context of the Government’s intention to be the “greenest Government ever”. We must ask how their planning policies sit within that ambition. This debate comes as the climate change talks and Rio+20 are about to take place. We want the Government to go to those international negotiations with real leadership, backed up by the action that is being taken at home. That action must relate to planning policy.
It is important that this matter is considered as a cross-cutting issue. Whatever the Department for Communities and Local Government puts before Parliament has to be consistent with the policies of the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the Department of Energy and Climate Change, so that the national policy statements about major infrastructure investments sit side by side with the localism agenda and planning policies. One problem with this consultation is that it is still being brought forward with a silo mentality. The Minister urgently needs to cross-reference it so that everything that comes about as a result of the new planning policies is consistent with the business plans of other Departments that relate to sustainable development. Otherwise, sustainable development will not underpin everything that is done.
Having made those general comments, I wish to congratulate many of the Members who have spoken, not least my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), who chairs the Communities and Local Government Committee. It is important that the Minister and Parliament take account of the scrutiny that takes place in Parliament, which is why this parliamentary debate is so important. If Parliament is to be fit for purpose, fit for the 21st century and fit to create the policies that we will need in generations to come, it is right that the Minister should give an undertaking when he responds that he will give us more time to take account of what is said by the Select Committees of the House of Commons. I am sure that the Liaison Committee will want to consider that as well.
Every Member of this House represents their constituency first and foremost. I will therefore say a brief word about an issue that relates to my constituency of Stoke-on-Trent North. It is the issue of brownfield sites, which many Members including my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) have mentioned.
I was interested that the Minister gave away the fact that the priority that there used to be to develop on brownfield sites has somehow been lost as a result of the need to prevent development in gardens. There are large industrial or former industrial parts of the country with huge amounts of brownfield site. In Stoke-on-Trent we have 175 hectares of brownfield land available for development. If we do not get the planning policy framework right, developers and property companies will cherry-pick green belt and greenfield sites.
Joan Walley
But where are the inducements to build houses in Stoke-on-Trent, where there is planning permission for them? It is not the planning permission system that is failing; it is the policies of the Treasury and other Departments. They are not ensuring that we can build the homes that are so desperately needed on brownfield sites.
I wish to mention the role of the Environmental Audit Committee. I am very pleased that we are collaborating with the Communities and Local Government Committee to examine the whole issue of planning. Our Select Committee has been charged with considering the definition of “sustainable development”. That is a key issue, and Ministers from DCLG and DEFRA were before the Committee in a united stance just last week. The present Minister gave what I thought was an undertaking to go away and look at the evidence—I stress that we are examining evidence-based representations. He now needs to consider how the detailed recommendations that we will make on a definition of “sustainable development” can be integrated into the national planning policy framework before it is too late. That is critical.
Oral Answers to Questions
Debate between Greg Clark and Joan Walley(13 years, 1 month ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Greg Clark
First, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the leadership he has shown in the community of Croydon in the wake of the riots. I am pleased to give him the assurance he seeks. The money will be unring-fenced and can be spent in the way that the people of Croydon think best. I am happy to meet such a delegation and I think that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will be visiting Croydon this week.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
When asked on BBC Radio Stoke why Stoke-on-Trent and Staffordshire was not selected as an enterprise zone in round 1, the Prime Minister, standing in Stoke-on-Trent, said:
“Look, you’re not missing out on an enterprise zone, there will be an enterprise zone within the Stoke and Staffordshire Local Enterprise Partnership…and there will be one in this area and we’ll be advised by the Local Enterprise Partnership about where it should go.”
The local enterprise partnership did advise, but we were not on the list. The map boundaries have not changed, and we are not part of the black country. What support will the Government now give to provide the enterprise investment that is needed, and will the Minister look again at our being included?
Greg Clark
I understand the hon. Lady’s disappointment that that particular bid was not approved, and I would be very happy to meet her to explain why. However, there is some consolation in the fact that 90% of the black country’s enterprise zone is located in the Stoke and Staffordshire area, so there is some good news for the regeneration of her area.
Localism Bill
Debate between Greg Clark and Joan Walley
Greg Clark
My hon. Friend anticipates the detail of the national policy planning framework, but at this stage all I would say on sustainable development is that the Government have no issue or disagreement with the classic definitions of it. The Brundtland definition, that development undertaken by this generation should not compromise the ability of future generations to live their lives, has stood the test of time and is very clear. Although I am foreshadowing the content of the framework, I want to give a clear signal to my hon. Friend and to all hon. Members that we intend to follow that approach.
Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)
This is a little like having the winding-up speeches before the debate has started, but, in anticipation that there might not be much time to set out the arguments for sustainable development, may I ask the Minister, given what he has said, whether he agrees that there is no substitute for writing sustainable development into legislation? Here we are, yet we do not have the details of the statement that will come out next week or later, so how can we ensure that sustainable development is written into the legislation? Is not that the most important aspect of this exercise?
Greg Clark
I will resist the temptation to stray from the proposed changes before us. There are amendments that deal in particular with sustainable development, but I say in passing that the opportunity for communities to have and to promote places of worship is a reflection of their sense of community, and we would be wholly in opposition to the direction of the Bill if we had any intention of restricting that—quite the reverse. I do not think that my hon. Friend has any cause for concern.
The previous Government promoted the five principles of sustainable development—living within environmental means, ensuring a strong, healthy and just society, achieving a sustainable economy, promoting good governance and using sound science responsibly—in the sustainable strategy. I have no difficulty with that, and without going into too much detail I would expect those principles to be reflected in planning policy, where they always have been. That has been the place for them.
The challenge from new clause 2—to require sustainable development to be put forward after a period—also carries an important virtue. The national planning policy framework will be subject to consultation, and it is quite right that we should give people the chance to see our definition—I have given a pretty broad steer as to what it will be—and to comment on it, rather than simply capturing something in the Bill now. I would be perfectly relaxed about doing so, but we should give people the chance to reflect on and to add to the definition.
Joan Walley
I hear what the Minister says, but would it not have been more appropriate if we had had that public debate alongside a White Paper, when sustainable development could have been looked at across the range of planning policy, not just as part of the framework to be published shortly? We could have looked at that first, but instead we are considering things in the dark.
Greg Clark
We are not quite in the dark. I hope that I have illuminated some of the dark, given what I have been able to say about the proposed contents of that White Paper. At the time of the Budget, I said that we would try to bring forward the definition a little earlier than the rest of the document, because I know that there is an interest in it. That will at least allow the other place to have the benefit of that thinking. If a greater token of good faith than my words at this Dispatch Box is required, it will appear quite shortly.
I think hon. Members will be satisfied with our approach. I have long regarded the matter as a personal interest, having shadowed the energy and climate change brief in opposition, and there is nothing in our approach that does anything other than enhance matters. By clarifying, and taking away much of the undergrowth around, planning policy, it will make more resonant the principles that the hon. Lady, the hon. Member for Birmingham, Erdington and my Liberal Democrat hon. Friends so rightly want to promote.
Neighbourhood planning is another important addition to the Bill. I freely accept that the initial version of our clauses on this could have been improved, and I made commitments in Committee that we would reflect on improvements that could be made. The hon. Gentleman was particularly exercised, and indeed lyrical, about the opportunities to improve some of these provisions. He was dismayed that a neighbourhood forum in which these issues could be discussed was liable to take place in the saloon bar of the Dog and Duck, thinking that too intimate a space for such a gathering and suggesting that it should be larger. We have reflected on the size of public houses across the country, and we think we need to enable more people to attend the forums.
There is no Dog and Duck in Birmingham, as far as I was able to establish, which is a great disappointment. There was a Dog and Duck in Holloway Head, which is perhaps an area of the city that he knows, but sadly it was demolished some time after 1899. I have brought in this very appealing photograph of the pub, which I will give to the hon. Gentleman so that next time he is in his city he can research its antecedence. I have to say that it does not look the most salubrious of establishments, but then I do not know what his taste is in public houses, and he might regret its disappearance. He may also be dismayed to hear that another public house demolished in Birmingham in recent years was the House That Jack Built. I am sure that that is a source of regret to everyone in Birmingham, but perhaps it is an opportunity for him.
Greg Clark
I was going to come on to my hon. Friend’s amendments, but since he raises the matter I will turn to them now. I will have to disappoint him. Neighbourhood plans are conceived as being about issues that just affect neighbourhoods. Although mineral extraction has consequences for particular neighbourhoods, it is clearly larger than a local matter. It has consequences for the wider authority and, in many cases, for national Government. It is not right to expect neighbourhood plans to govern mineral extraction, which goes beyond their scope.
Joan Walley
The issue of open-cast coal mining is critical, particularly in former coal mining areas. If there is going to be a presumption in favour of mineral extraction instead of that being balanced with environmental considerations, that suggests that there will be no commitment whatever to sustainable development at the heart of planning policy. If people cannot prevent open-cast coal mining, or have their view of it taken on board, that will send out a strong message to them that they will not have any say in future developments in their locality.
Greg Clark
No, the hon. Lady has got it wrong. We are talking about neighbourhood planning, but of course a whole panoply of other planning policy applies. There is absolutely no intention to remove the test of sustainability for mineral extraction or any other proposal, and that will be a matter for national policy. I do not underestimate in any way the importance of open-cast mining for the communities in which it takes place, but neighbourhood plans are not the mechanism to control it. I hope most hon. Members will see that.