Draft English Apprenticeships (Consequential amendments to Primary Legislation) Order 2015

Gordon Marsden Excerpts

Wednesday 21st October 2015 General Committees

[Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hamilton. I am new to this portfolio, so it is a pleasure to face the Minister for the first time, as it will be to face the Minister for Skills, the hon. Member for Grantham and Stamford (Nick Boles) in due course.

The Minister spoke about both the context and detail of the order, so I intend to follow his lead in that respect and ask specific questions. I accept and understand that he is not the Skills Minister, so if he cannot answer them now, a note to me and the Committee would be helpful.

I think the Minister was clear about this, but I want to be certain because there is a degree of ambiguity in the drafting of the order: will he confirm that all references in legislation to apprenticeships now include the approved English apprenticeships with approved standards, and that no loopholes are left that could mean that someone undertaking a new apprenticeship would not be covered by legislation?

Perhaps more substantively, previous legislation covered both England and Wales, but the order, as I understand it, covers only England. What discussions has the Minister’s Department had with the Welsh Assembly about its protection of standards for those who undertake apprenticeships?

Again, I think the Minister made this clear, but for the avoidance of doubt will he confirm that existing frameworks, and not just trailblazers, remain covered by all legislation supported by Government? In that context, I refer him to article 2, which talks about

“an alternative English apprenticeship…within the meaning given in section A1(4) of the Act”.

It has been suggested that alternative apprenticeships are directed at self-employed people or people who do not earn during their apprenticeships. Therefore, will he explain how the alternative apprenticeships also being inserted into legislation will work? In particular, if it is true that people who do not earn during their apprenticeship will be affected, how does that square with the Government’s general position on the minimum wage and things of that nature?

The Minister talked about wanting to be more responsive to employees. I held the same position as I do now when the Richard report came out, and Labour engaged with that process and was broadly supportive of the proposals. However, the Minister will know that the devil is in the detail. As he will know, the CBI has called for clarity on the new trailblazer assessments, companies have been concerned that the assessment costs for trailblazers are disproportionate, and other providers in this area such as the Association of Colleges, the Association of Employment and Learning Providers and in particular the Federation of Small Businesses have expressed concerns about the detail. If he cannot comment specifically on that today, I would be grateful if he would explain in writing what measures his Department has taken to allay those concerns.

Finally, the 2012 review that the Minister mentioned suggested that apprenticeships should be sector-based. When the Government received that report, did they anticipate that 70 different sectors would be involved? Given that that is the case, what are the likely implications for administration and staffing in his Department or elsewhere?

[Joseph Johnson]

It is a pleasure to face such a formidable, forensic opposite number—I am not envious of my hon. Friend the Minister for Skills in that respect. I will do my best to answer some of the hon. Gentleman’s questions, and, in areas in which I cannot provide him with as much detail as he would like, I will happily write to him and other members of the Committee.

The hon. Gentleman’s first question was whether all references to apprenticeships in legislation are now covered, following the changes made in this order, or whether there are still loopholes. The intention is that the work done in this Committee today should mean that the legislation is now comprehensive, and we hope that we are addressing his concern in that respect.

The hon. Gentleman’s second major point was about the Welsh aspect of the order. He asked what discussions the Government have had with the Welsh Government on the protection of apprenticeship standards. As he knows, skills policy in Wales is a devolved matter, and therefore the protection of apprenticeship standards in Wales is an issue for the Welsh Government.

I turn to how alternative English apprenticeships will work, which is another issue that the hon. Gentleman raised. Alternative English apprenticeships are intended to allow the Government to make provision, where appropriate, for apprenticeships in occupations where it is not the norm for apprentices to have an employer.

Finally, the hon. Gentleman asked about responsiveness to the needs of employers. I point out that we have, as he knows, set out the trailblazers programme. As I mentioned, there are 140 groups in that programme, comprising 1,300 businesses involved in designing world-class apprenticeships, including degree apprenticeships, which are essential for employers to ensure that they get the pipeline of skills that they need in years to come. We are working closely with trailblazers at all phases to ensure quality across standards. Giving employers responsibility for developing those standards is absolutely vital in ensuring that they have a vested interest in producing high-quality standards that are robust. A number of criteria have been set that all new apprenticeship standards must meet in order to ensure quality and consistency across all apprenticeships. Those criteria provide a framework against which to approve the proposals put forward by employers developing the new standards.

[Mr Marsden]

I appreciate, again, that the Minister’s officials may wish to draft something for him in response to this point. When I referred to alternative apprenticeships, I mentioned two categories that had been suggested to me: one was self-employed people and the other was people who do not earn during their apprenticeships. There are certain very narrow circumstances in which that can and does happen at the moment, but I am sure the Minister would agree with me that that should not be regarded broadly as the norm, even for self-employed people. It would therefore be useful to know in due course, if not today, just how widely or narrowly the measure is drawn, if indeed the criterion is applied in those cases.

[Joseph Johnson]

On this occasion, I will write to the hon. Gentleman and make sure that he has that information available to him shortly.

Question put and agreed to.