Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures

Debate between Gerry Sutcliffe and Robert Buckland

Tuesday 21st January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Buckland]

My hon. Friend’s point allows me to make two observations. First, we have to be careful, in setting the parameters of any orders we impose, not to heighten the sense of grievance; and secondly and most importantly, the Government have to take other measures, in terms of the resources given to the security and intelligence services, the work done by Prevent and the counter-terrorism work done day in, day out to supplement the TPIMs regime. Is there not a danger that in dwelling on the detail of TPIMs, we ignore the bigger picture and the Government’s welcome injection of extra resources into this area of activity?

The constant vigilance of our security services is not only underpinned by statute, but, as the Home Secretary said, exercised by use of the royal prerogative, which is still the residual source of authority for Government activity in this area and which I know is used daily. The motion calls on the Government to share with the Intelligence and Security Committee the full assessment of the threat or otherwise posed by the six individuals who are to exit the TPIMs regime imminently, and then subject it to a cross-party review. However well intentioned that might be, to link such a process with individual cases is misconceived, because it risks bringing a Committee of Parliament into the field of operations. It is the job of parliamentary Committees to consider the strategy and the legal structure; it is not their job to consider operational matters, and I can see any cross-party review falling foul of that problem.

[Mr Sutcliffe]

What does the hon. Gentleman see as the role of the Intelligence and Security Committee? It looks at lots of issues that are reported to it about the threats the country faces, which ordinary Members of Parliament cannot see.

[Mr Buckland]

I accept the hon. Gentleman’s point about the role of that Committee and its structure, which perhaps allows it to go into more intimate detail than debates on the Floor of the House would allow. However, if members of that Committee were to intervene—I am sure some of them will take part in the debate later—I think they would hesitate before allowing the ambit of the Committee to include looking at individual operational matters. That really is not the role, as I see it, of a Committee of Parliament such as the Intelligence and Security Committee.

TPIMs are already subject to a number of reviews. We have heard a lot about the independent reviewer, David Anderson, QC, and his annual reports, which give a helpful and comprehensive analysis of the effectiveness or otherwise of TPIMs. There are also, of course, quarterly reports to Parliament made by the Home Secretary, and I have already mentioned the work of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. As I understand it, the Government intend to carry out a broader review of counter-terrorism measures, which will no doubt include the operation of TPIMs. For all those reasons, it seems unnecessary to call for a cross-party review at this stage.

Let me deal with some of the points that have sparked debate this evening, the first being the question of absconsion. The very nature of such orders means that the risk of absconsion will always be present, whatever the conditions may be. The only way to prevent absconsion is to lock people up, and doing so without trial falls foul of fundamental principles that we should all share as democrats and lovers of liberty. There is an argument I have heard that the risk of absconsion would be higher if TPIM subjects remained in their local communities, but to my way of thinking it is equally arguable either way. It is equally arguable that a person placed in another part of the country, isolated and therefore disengaged from their community, would want to abscond as well.

The truth is that there is no clear evidence to support the contention that the lack of relocation powers in TPIMs has led to more absconsions. When it comes to the reasons for those absconsions, Ministers must satisfy themselves that the secret services and the police are taking every step possible to reduce the risk posed to the rest of us by such people and that suitable resources are available to deal with the situation. That is why the increase in resources by the Government is so important.

As an investigative measure, TPIMs are a bit of a misnomer in my view. I agree with the view of David Anderson that the investigatory part of TPIMs has not been effective. There is no evidence to suggest that they have in any way led to further prosecutions. What they are is a preventive measure. That was the view of the reviewer and it is certainly my view. I agree with him that TPIMs are likely to have prevented terrorist activity and, most importantly, they will have allowed resources to be released from deployment on the former control order regime, to deal with other pressing national security targets. Those are not my words; they are the words of David Anderson in his last review, and I agree.

We have heard about exit strategies. It would be wrong to explore individual cases, but—to return to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart)—some information about the work being done in the wider counter-terrorism context would be welcome, whether it be general information about the Prevent strategy or information about the work of the new extremism taskforce, which was set up in the wake of the appalling Woolwich murder.

Much has been made of time limits, yet an inescapable truth has been avoided by some Opposition speakers: that the indefinite use of control orders would inevitably be subject to legal challenge in the continuing absence of guilt. The argument about time is therefore rather an artificial one and does not advance the merits of the case much further forward.

In a nutshell, it would be wrong to characterise the introduction of TPIMs as a wholesale diminution of the Government’s resolve to tackle terrorism. To say so does no service to the issues that we are dealing with. Let us return to the approach outlined by the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), the former Home Secretary, and rise above petty party politics.

Ministerial Code (Culture Secretary)

Debate between Gerry Sutcliffe and Robert Buckland

Wednesday 13th June 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Sutcliffe]

I do not accept that. I am not a lawyer, but I have had 18 years’ experience in the House of Commons, and I recall similar situations in which, unfortunately—and I mean unfortunately—Ministers have been put in the stressful position of having to defend themselves. Again unfortunately, on occasion over the years they have not been able to defend themselves, and have gone.

What was necessary on this occasion was the opportunity for an independent adviser to examine the Secretary of State’s actions. I understood from his responses that he firmly believes that he has done nothing wrong, and he is entitled to that belief, but questions are being asked by colleagues on all sides. Indeed, the right hon. Member for Bath (Mr Foster) has said that the coalition partners feel that there are questions to be answered.

Surely the Secretary of State must understand the depth of feeling among Opposition Members about some of the processes that took place. Certainly I, as a former Minister in the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, could not believe that the special adviser had been given so much power to act in the way that he did. During our time in government, we dealt with the sale of the Tote and with the issue of the “crown jewels” —the question of what should and should not be televised. We received clear briefings from the permanent secretary about what our legal responsibilities were and about what we could not do.

When the Secretary of State made his statement some months ago, I asked him why the political adviser had been given the role of backstop or contact with News International. As I said earlier to the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), the Chairman of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, given all the furore surrounding the issue and, in particular, the actions of the Business Secretary, the Secretary of State put himself in a terrible position—or was put in that position by the Prime Minister—in relation to the Department’s roles.

When we asked why the permanent secretary supported this action, the Secretary of State said that the permanent secretary had been “content”. The meaning of the word “content” is open to question. When the permanent secretary went to the Public Accounts Committee, he refused to answer questions on the issue. He has gone before the Leveson inquiry, but I can tell the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) that none of the pertinent questions relating to this issue were asked at the inquiry. Where can parliamentarians get the opportunity to ask the questions that needed to be asked?

[Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman’s speech, and I know that he has considerable ministerial experience. He has made the point, properly, that when quasi-judicial procedures are adopted, Ministers must act very carefully within guidelines. Where is the hard evidence that this Secretary of State did not act in accordance with the careful strictures of the quasi-judicial procedure? It is all very well talking about feelings, but where is the evidence?

[Mr Sutcliffe]

My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen raised that point in his questions to the Secretary of State. He also raised the issue of the relationship between the Secretary of State and the special adviser. I am beginning to support the ideas of the Chairman of the Public Administration Committee. If an independent adviser had had an opportunity to see that there was a problem—because it was a problem raised by Members in all parts of the House—that person could have investigated further. That was not the situation. I ask Members of all parties to consider how the public see this matter in relation to the wider issues. The press have taken a view, but how do the public get to find out what has taken place?

I have been a strong supporter of this House over many years, and believe we should be able to inquire about things through our Select Committee processes and so forth. As a Minister, I was happy to appear before Select Committees. There is an untold story here, however, and until it is told, with the opportunity for questioning, we will never know what happened. That is a terrible position for the Secretary of State to be in. I respect him and have had good dealings with him over many years, but I think he has been left in a vulnerable position by the Prime Minister, because an independent person has not at least had an opportunity to ascertain the facts, after which the Prime Minister can make a decision.