Draft Wales Bill

Gerald Jones Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 General Committees

[Gerald Jones (Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney) (Lab)]

Last, but not least, Mr Hanson; it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. This is a double pleasure because, as is the case for many other Members, this is the first Welsh Grand Committee that I have attended.

As other right hon. and hon. Members have said, the draft Bill does not have much support from academics, lawyers and even the Secretary of State’s party colleagues in the Welsh Assembly. Indeed, many of those who have given evidence to the Welsh Affairs Committee have outlined concerns about the Bill, particularly regarding whether it takes us forward. As our party established the Welsh Assembly, Labour Members support the additional powers for Wales proposed in the Bill, but we have significant concerns about how the powers of the Assembly would be rolled back by its other provisions.

The Secretary of State says that he wants the Bill to provide a clear and lasting settlement, but I am deeply concerned that it would take devolution backwards and not provide anything like the stable solution that he is seeking. In fact, I agree with the view that the Bill may be unworkable. We know that existing legislation sets out basic tests that the Assembly must meet before it can legislate—it must abide by EU law and the European convention on human rights. It is regrettable that the Bill increases the number of tests from nine to 13. It is clear to most people that that will make the work of the National Assembly more complicated and increase bureaucracy.

There is much wrong with the Bill, but I shall focus on the necessity tests. They appear throughout the Bill, but several legal experts have made the point that “necessity” has an array of different meanings in law. The unfortunate result of the necessity test would be that many more cases could end up in the Supreme Court to decide what “necessity” means. Clearly, that would slow down the Assembly’s work and would cost the taxpayer hugely. The reality would be the bizarre situation of the Supreme Court, rather than the elected National Assembly for Wales, deciding whether a law is necessary.

[Chris Davies (Brecon and Radnorshire) (Con)]

Although I have missed some of this afternoon’s debate, for which I apologise, I have heard a lot about various legal jurisdictions—separate or whatever—and constant calls from Labour Members for a different jurisdiction. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North, who has now disappeared from the room, spoke of how much time he has spent sitting in Committees, as have I. Those of us on the Select Committee heard from lawyers, academics and legal experts who constantly wanted a new jurisdiction in Wales, although they seem to be the only ones calling for it. We have heard from the Secretary of State that the senior legal people in this country do not recommend that. The general public in Aberavon and Brecon and Radnorshire do not want it, either.

[The Chair]

Order. The hon. Gentleman’s intervention is too long. He will have an opportunity to make a speech after Mr Jones has finished, should he so wish. Interventions should be short sentences.

[Gerald Jones]

I am not sure where the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire was going with that. Clearly, we want a system that works and that provides a framework for moving the Assembly and devolution forward.

The Assembly’s Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee’s report on the draft Bill says:

“The necessity tests have elicited considerable reaction amongst those who have provided us with evidence and it is fair to say that these tests have received very little support.”

We should accept the principle that the Assembly should be able to legislate freely in the areas devolved to it without having to prove that its actions are necessary.

[Stephen Crabb]

There is nothing in the draft Bill that makes the Welsh Assembly consider whether legislating in a devolved area is necessary. This is about a spill-over effect in reserved areas impacting on England and the underlying principles of civil and criminal law. There is freedom to act as long as it can be satisfied that the impact is no greater than necessary. There is nothing about satisfying an overall test of whether legislating in a devolved area is necessary.

--- Later in debate ---

[Gerald Jones]

There are necessity tests throughout the Bill. Many existing Acts of the Assembly would not have been possible if the draft Bill had been in force. We should accept the principle that the Assembly should legislate freely in those areas that are devolved.

The Bill would be much easier to implement if the necessity test was taken out of it—I ask the Secretary of State to consider that—but, unfortunately, I am not filled with much confidence that that will happen. However, to be fair, the Secretary of State has indicated that this is a draft Bill and that he is listening to comments during pre-legislative scrutiny. After listening to the deliberations of not only the Welsh Affairs Committee, but those in all aspects of Welsh life, as my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli mentioned, I hope that the Secretary of State will act accordingly.