ISIL in Syria

Gerald Howarth Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd December 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Owen Paterson (North Shropshire) (Con)]

I entirely endorse the comments of the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron), the leader of the Liberal Democrat party. Until we remove Daesh, we are all at risk. We are at risk with or without bombing in Iraq, and we are at risk with or without bombing in Syria.

I was in France and saw the stunned reaction of the French populace. There is no negotiation in the way that the Leader of the Opposition suggests, with those who gun down people going about their daily business and in restaurants, or those who take a bomb to a crowded football stadium. Removing Daesh, therefore, is an absolute priority. A large number of Members voted a year ago to bomb in Iraq. It is clearly nonsense for our aeroplanes to stop at an arbitrary boundary in the sand. If we are invited by our severely damaged and hurt allies and neighbours, the French, to bring special technology, it is a terrible dereliction not to involve ourselves and offer that technology.

In the past couple of days, I have talked to some very experienced allied generals. There is no doubt whatever that having the UK playing a full part in a coalition, bringing intelligence, planning and experience, does give an intangible moral and philosophical boost to the campaign. I am clear that this is about the safety of our citizens. We are better off if we engage in this activity.

I would like to touch briefly on the artificial boundary. My right hon. Friend the Member for Rutland and Melton (Sir Alan Duncan) called these nation states. The entities of Syria and Iraq were created in the 1920s out of elements of the Ottoman empire. Iraq was made up of three old Ottoman vilayets: Basra, which is very Shi’a; Baghdad, which is mainly Sunni; and Mosul in Kurdistan. When the Kurds—there were about 19 million then and there are about 30 million now—emerged from the first world war, they were promised a country. They did not get one. We are living with the consequences of what was decided then.

I remember when I was at Cambridge the late Professor Jack Gallagher talking about the fat cats. France and Britain came out of the first world war with these new entities very much increasing their sphere of influence. It was always assumed that there would be British and French influence: passive military influence if necessary; very active military in the case of the bombing campaign in Iraq in the 1920s. This system worked until 1958, when the king was killed. It sort of worked under the horrendous dictatorships of Saddam Hussein and Assad père. It has broken down now. For all the criticism of the Iraq war, it could have worked. It was a terrible decision by the Obama regime to withdraw the US garrison. There are still US garrisons in west Germany, Japan, South Korea and the Philippines. It should have been there for the long term.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

The Americans withdrew, of course, because the Iraqis would not give a status of forces agreement under which US forces would not be liable to Iraqi law. That is why the Americans were forced to withdraw.

[Mr Paterson]

Yes, and I think the Administration were weak not to get their way on that. Of course, the Maliki regime, which was corrupt and sectarian, has now gone. What we need to look at now is how we make these entities work. Any expert on the area will say that it is not an option to destroy these boundaries.

What I would put to those on the Front-Bench—a line in the motion provides the grounds for this—is that we should follow what the current Prime Minister is doing in Iraq in talking about functioning federalism. We need to give these ethnic groups security within the old post-world war one boundaries. If we look at how the Ottomans did it, we see that they basically left the locals to run their own show. There is a clear breakdown in Iraq whereby significant autonomy is provided within these entities, and this is already happening with the Kurds.

Given the terrible conditions under which local people are living, we will not get their support to remove Daesh if they do not feel that they will emerge at the end of this very difficult process with an entity to which they are loyal and feel safe in. Sunnis in Iraq will not stick their heads above the parapet if they think they will end up with another corrupt Maliki Shi’a regime. The same applies the other way round, because the Shi’a will not want to end up with another Saddam regime.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

No one who has taken part in the debate today has approached it lightly and I think that we would all agree that anyone who suffers recriminations as a result of whatever decision they reach should have the sympathy of the House. There can be no recriminations and we must be free to express our views as we think fit. We are accountable to our constituents for what we say and what we do.

Notwithstanding the enormous media hype about today’s debate, it is not about a decision to go to war. As my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) said, this is essentially an extension of the operations we have been carrying out in Iraq since the House decided last year by 524 votes to 43 that the Government should take that action.

It is important to make the point that our intervention in Iraq has been critical. Without that intervention, there is no doubt that ISIL/Daesh would have taken control of the whole country. Had they taken control of Iraq, the consequences for the entire region, let alone us, would have been catastrophic. They would have been in charge of the entire oil output of Iraq and would have caused absolute mayhem. Since we joined the coalition partners in Iraq, at least 30% of the land taken by Daesh has been recovered. The contribution has been worth while and, as so many have said, it clearly makes no sense for Tornado aircraft and the Royal Air Force to have to turn back at the border.

Many people have made the point—most effectively the Prime Minister, if I might say so—about the unique capability that the UK has and that France and the United States have asked us to contribute to this operation. I say to the right hon. Member for Gordon (Alex Salmond), who is no longer in his place, and to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), with whom I am normally in agreement but am not on this occasion, that the Brimstone missile is a unique capability that only the United Kingdom can deploy. One other country has it, but the United Kingdom is the only one that currently can deploy it. That missile has been proven to have a precision strike that reduces the likelihood of civilian casualties to a minimum. Of course there will never be a complete absence of civilian casualties, but Daesh is attacking people every day of the week.

It is also important to note that the United Kingdom has some of the most stringent rules of engagement. I know that from personal experience. I was a Defence Minister involved in the Libyan operations and the painstaking extent to which the military and the politicians act to ensure that the target is legitimate, that it is an important military target and that there is an absence of civilians is extraordinary. The House should be under no illusions: there is no cavalier approach to this. I make that point to the wider public as well.

This is a complex issue but there are some simple truths. First, Daesh’s medieval barbarity is a threat to the region and to us. Secondly, the United Nations Security Council has called unanimously on all states to take all necessary measures. Thirdly, we have that unique additional capability to which I have just referred. Fourthly, we are working flat out on the diplomatic front, through the International Syria Support Group, and there is more that could be done, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) said. However, Daesh will carry on killing, beheading and raping until we stop them doing it to innocent people, and it would be immoral for us to stand aside.