Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between George Freeman and Andrew Bridgen

Tuesday 5th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[George Freeman]

Well—happy new year! Only Labour could take a £3.5 billion commitment to fund social care as “more pressure”. We are leading the way in integration—not before time, after 14 years in which Labour did nothing. We are leading the way on integration and putting in the extra money. I am delighted to say that, through the £3.8 billion for this coming year and the £10 billion funding for the NHS Five Year Forward View for transformation, it is the Conservative party that is investing in a 21st-century NHS. Labour seems to want to take us back to “Call the Midwife”.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is an important step to devolve powers to local authorities, as they are best placed to commission care services for local populations?

[George Freeman]

My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. The key is, of course, more funding and more integration, but crucially more local leadership too, and we are actively making it easier through the devolution programme for local authorities and local health leaders to plan the integrated services that are appropriate for their area. Not all areas are the same.

Post Office Horizon System

Debate between George Freeman and Andrew Bridgen

Monday 29th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[George Freeman]

As I say, if any individuals feel that their conviction is unsafe, they can always explore the legal avenues open to them. Where large numbers feel that that is the case, as is alleged, it is perfectly possible for them to bring a class action together. I do not accept that there is a fundamental injustice in the process that prevents people from bringing claims. I accept, however, that it is absolutely vital, where there is a legitimate claim against the Post Office about how it has treated its sub-postmasters, that those claims must be looked at properly.

In the limited time available, I want to move on to the Post Office’s approach. Both tonight and elsewhere, my hon. Friend the Member for North West Leicestershire and others have raised the very serious dissatisfaction felt about the way in which the Post Office has handled relations with its sub-postmasters. When this debate was called, I spoke to the Post Office to understand the situation. I have received a letter from its chief executive, Paula Vennells, which I shall send to my hon. Friend and others who have spoken and place in the Library. The letter sets out just how seriously the Post Office has taken this matter. Ms Vennells says:

“We have gone to great lengths...because I was determined that, if there were problems with the Horizon system, these had to be identified and resolved.”

I will happily pick up any issues that my hon. Friend or others feel are not addressed in the letter.

As I have already said, the mediation scheme is rightly independent of the Government. It was established jointly by the Post Office and the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance, working with Second Sight, and it is overseen by an independent chair, a former Court of Appeal judge. It is right that the details of individual cases should be confidential and that the Post Office respects that.

[Andrew Bridgen]

The Minister should be aware that one of the criteria given by the Post Office for removing cases from mediation was if a very large claim was involved. Those sub-postmasters who have suffered the greatest loss and the greatest injustice were therefore immediately excluded from the mediation system.

[George Freeman]

That is a very interesting point, which I will be happy to take up with my hon. Friend, perhaps in the context of what I am about to suggest.

Although it remains the case that there is no evidence that the Horizon system is flawed, if any individual feels that their conviction is unsafe, they can pursue the legal avenues available to them. I do not see any reason for the Government to intervene in this matter by instigating a full judicial inquiry. However, I am struck by the extent of the concern expressed tonight by Members from both sides of the House and during the lead-up to this debate, including some of the specific testimony heard tonight. I will be happy to convene a meeting in the Department, perhaps led by my hon. Friend, with the support of others from across the House—to deal with the point he has just made and one or two others that have been made this evening—and to invite the Post Office to come to that meeting with representatives of sub-postmasters to try to iron out the issues.

My hon. Friend has raised other points that are a matter for the Post Office, rather than for the Government. I have no doubt that the Post Office has listened closely to this debate and will be in touch with him to answer his questions. I agree with him that this matter has gone on for far longer than anyone would wish and, for whatever reason, has been the cause of huge difficulties, trial and unnecessary hardship for a number of the sub-postmasters who have been affected.

The important thing now is for the final cases in the mediation scheme to progress to mediation, and I urge all the parties involved to continue to work together to make that happen. That will help the individuals with cases remaining in the scheme to reach resolution, and it will mean that the Post Office can, working closely and collaboratively with its sub-postmasters, carry on with its essential role of serving communities.

I repeat that some of the points made tonight in the House merit investigation. I will happily convene a meeting in the Department to put those specific points to Post Office Ltd. The system may have generally worked well for the vast majority of users, but that in itself is no reason not to ensure that those who have been legitimately unable to deal with the system should not be penalised unfairly. They certainly should not be made the victim of criminal judgments when their crime is nothing more than being unable to cope with a new IT system. I look forward to raising those points with the Post Office.

Question put and agreed to.