Census (Return Particulars and Removal of Penalties) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Gareth Thomas and Kevin Foster

2nd reading: House of Commons
Wednesday 17th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Foster]

In deciding the questions for the census, the Government will be guided by the technical recommendations of the ONS. Of course, the House and Parliament will need to decide on the questions in the census via the orders that will be introduced later this year, but the Government will continue to be guided by the ONS.

[Gareth Thomas]

Will the Minister ensure that the orders to which he has just referred, which would allow the inclusion of questions about national identity and about Jainism and Zoroastrianism, are debated on the Floor of the House? If they are debated upstairs in Committee, the vast majority of Members are likely to be excluded.

[Kevin Foster]

I will come back to the hon. Gentleman after a discussion via the usual channels. We are talking about a hybrid order of a unique nature, some of which will be amendable and some not, but we will certainly make sure that that is discussed. I thank him for the constructive meeting that we had about his concerns relating to his constituency.

When it comes to Cornwall, I can understand why we had a religious story—not least because Cornwall is located next to God’s own county, Devonshire. We will have an opportunity to debate that further in secondary legislation, but the Government are guided by the ONS.

I turn to homelessness, which was one of the main issues raised during the debate. The ONS is working with stakeholders such as Homeless Link, Shelter and St Mungo’s to develop plans to allow those who are experiencing homelessness to take part in the census. That will include work around census day, because not everyone will necessarily be in a particular shelter on the evening of the census. It will also include engagement with those connected with the LGBT sector to make sure that the census is thorough and counts everyone in.

This is a very simple piece of legislation, which does not direct that any questions should be in the 2021 census; it merely sets out that questions on those two subjects should be answered on a voluntary basis. That will ensure that vital information on both issues is captured, but that no one is forced to disclose it if they do not wish to. I therefore urge colleagues to support the Bill, and I commend it to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a Second time.

CENSUS (RETURN PARTICULARS AND REMOVAL OF PENALTIES) BILL [LORDS] (PROGRAMME)

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 83A(7)),

That the following provisions shall apply to the Census (Return Particulars and Removal of Penalties) Bill [Lords]:

Committal

(1) The Bill shall be committed to a Committee of the whole House.

Proceedings in Committee of the whole House, on Consideration and up to and including Third Reading

(2) Proceedings in Committee of the whole House, any proceedings on Consideration and any proceedings in legislative grand committee shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion two hours after the commencement of proceedings in Committee of the whole House.

(3) Proceedings on Third Reading shall (so far as not previously concluded) be brought to a conclusion three hours after the commencement of proceedings in Committee of the whole House.

(4) Standing Order No. 83B (Programming committees) shall not apply to proceedings in Committee of the whole House, to any proceedings on Consideration or to other proceedings up to and including Third Reading.

Other proceedings

(5) Any other proceedings on the Bill may be programmed.—(Amanda Milling.)

Question agreed to.

Local Government Finance Bill (Ninth sitting)

Debate between Gareth Thomas and Kevin Foster

Tuesday 21st February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Thomas]

I think that times have moved on and people have seen the success of business rate supplements as they have worked, particularly in London. Now is the time to make a sensible change. I certainly do not think it was the intention of the last Labour Government to say that if an area does not have a Mayor it must for ever be denied the chance to have investment in infrastructure.

[Kevin Foster]

A few moments ago the hon. Gentleman said that he wanted to see fairness for non-mayoral—or non-elected Mayor-led—combined authorities, but his amendment states “any other billing authority”, not any other combined authority, in other words deleting the requirement for an elected Mayor. Therefore he is not seeking fairness for areas without a Mayor: he seeks to include a range of things, which could mean that some places end up paying two of these supplements.

[Mr Thomas]

I used the example of the non-mayoral combined authorities to make a crucial point. This is a probing amendment and I am interested in hearing why Ministers want to exclude non-mayoral combined authorities. I say that in the context of my huge support for the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, who is doing an excellent job. I am conscious, though, that many council leaders and councillors have strong relationships with their local business community. I gently suggest that we should trust both business owners and local people who have elected councils to look at the merits of a particular proposal on infrastructure, rather than dictating from Whitehall whether they have to have a Mayor in order to levy a business rate supplement.

Local Government Finance Bill (Seventh sitting)

Debate between Gareth Thomas and Kevin Foster

Thursday 9th February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Thomas]

Given that that we do not wish to put the amendment to a vote, I have not sought support for it.

I return to the contributions made to the Select Committee report by the hon. Members for Thirsk and Malton and for Northampton South, who supported the power to raise business rates. Labour Members do not go as far as those hon. Gentlemen want us to, but their enthusiasm for raising business rates returns us to a broad point: where and how does one increase the quantum of local authority funding, if one wants the people of England to have the good-quality public services that they deserve? We have noted with considerable concern the impact that the decline in revenue support grant has had on rural bus services, public services and policing. If they do not have the power to raise business rates, I suspect that more and more councils will want to increase council tax as a way to fund public services.

The motivation for amendment 46, a probing amendment, is to note the difference between what can happen to empty property rates in Scotland and Wales, and what can happen in England. Councils in England can charge up to 150% on properties that have been unoccupied and substantially unfurnished for more than two years. In Scotland, they can charge up to 200%, and the qualifying period is only a year; Wales has similar powers. It would be interesting to hear from the Minister the reason for the difference. In Britain’s best constituency, Harrow West, the old post office site in the town centre has been empty for the better part of 10 years. Perhaps if empty property rates were set at the same level as those in Scotland, the developers who own the site would have more enthusiasm for accelerating their use of the planning permission that they have for it.

[Kevin Foster]

It is sad to hear that the hon. Gentleman’s town centre post office was a victim of Labour’s cuts, but how does he think post offices would be sustained by an increase in their business rates?

[Mr Thomas]

I say gently to the hon. Gentleman that the old post office site is not vacant due to the closure of the post office; the post office transferred across to a slightly smaller site immediately opposite under a Labour Government. Sadly, that post office has now closed under a Conservative Government, and the Post Office now operates from a franchise in a small corner of the local WH Smith. Again, as part of the mentoring that we offer, I gently suggest that he might want to check his facts a little more before making interventions that are that easy to rebut.

Local Government Finance Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Gareth Thomas and Kevin Foster

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Thomas]

I see the hon. Gentleman has woken up. I give way to him.

[Kevin Foster]

The hilarity that the hon. Gentleman has been causing has certainly kept me awake all the way through the last hour and 10 minutes. To help my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton, I point out that he can find the Labour party manifesto in the fiction section of the House of Commons Library. The point that I wished to intervene on is this. The hon. Member for Harrow West has just criticised the previous Chancellor’s decision on business rate reliefs. He said that that was not consulted on. Will he tell me which one of those reliefs he opposed the introduction of?

[Mr Thomas]

My point was not about whether one opposes particular reliefs, but about the impact on local government finance. There is a consequential impact for local government, which we are debating today—a consequential impact on the finances of the hon. Gentleman’s local authority, my local authority and, indeed, the local authorities of all members of the Committee—and surely those consequential changes need to be considered. My point is that, under the Minister’s proposals, which I suspect the hon. Gentleman has been told he has to support, come what may—that is the reason he has the privilege of serving on the Committee and being mentored by Opposition Members—parliamentary scrutiny is being weakened in relation to local government finance. There may well be further justification for further reliefs to business, or for further public services to benefit from reliefs. We will seek to explore that later. However, there should be an ongoing opportunity to explore the consequential impacts of decisions that the Chancellor or other parts of the Executive might make on local councils’ finances.

Local Government Finance Bill (Sixth sitting)

Debate between Gareth Thomas and Kevin Foster

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Thomas]

We have all been trying to help the hon. Member for Torbay improve his performances so that he is allowed to move from the back of the Back Benches to be a little closer to the front.

[Kevin Foster]

The shadow Minister is his usual generous self, and I thank him for giving way. I can only say that I can guess who my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) looks to for inspiration in terms of brevity in making speeches on Fridays. The hon. Gentleman has been referring to social care. Torbay has one of the lowest levels of delayed discharge, despite its demographics. Does he agree that setting up a good quality integrated care organisation is the actual solution, rather than his amendment?

[Mr Thomas]

To my great surprise, I am almost in agreement with the hon. Gentleman—there has clearly been a huge improvement as a result of our collective mentoring of him—but I add one reservation to my encouragement. What he suggests makes some sense going forward, but amendment 31 would be a useful addition that would give us the opportunity to understand whether Ministers have properly grasped the social care funding situation for each local authority, whether that is joint or not joint with others.

In making the case for amendment 31, let us move into an area that is particularly topical in the light of the housing White Paper: homelessness services. Clearly, those are key statutory services that local authorities offer. Local authorities have already faced a substantial number of legal challenges on their statutory duties to support the most vulnerable people who are at risk of homelessness. In September last year, 74,630 households were in temporary accommodation, including those in bed and breakfasts. That was the 21st consecutive quarter in which the number of homeless households in temporary accommodation increased. If we factor in the 40% increase over the past four years in the cost of providing temporary accommodation, the LGA—not a body to sound the alarm unnecessarily—estimates that the funding gap for homelessness services will be £192 million by 2020.

I was not able, because I was preparing for this debate, to be in the Chamber to hear the Secretary of State speak, but just from looking briefly at the social media reaction, I did not get the sense that he announced an additional £192 million for homelessness services by 2020. That is a further reason to encourage action after the new system comes in by accepting amendment 31.

Sunderland City Council has already announced that because of the very difficult financial situation it is in, it may have to cut its entire housing support budget, which is used to pay for vital services, such as hostel beds, refuges and supported housing. Services for those who are most at risk of homelessness, including ex-offenders, people with mental health conditions and those with learning difficulties, are also being cut. When we bear in mind that the life expectancy of those sleeping rough is just 47, according to charities in Birmingham, one fears that vulnerable people will die as a direct result of the proposed cuts to housing support services in Birmingham of some £10 million over the next two years. That is an indication of the financial crisis affecting another local authority.

The new duties to be introduced under the Homelessness Reduction Bill, which the Minister prayed in aid last week, are welcomed, but many of us remain sceptical that councils are being adequately funded to fulfil them. On Second Reading, as I recollect from glancing at the debate, quite a few of the interventions raised directly with the Minister concern about the availability of funding. Were amendment 31 on the statute book, Ministers would have less chance of inadvertently not understanding or not recognising financial needs in that area.

There is great concern about the insufficiency of the £48 million of funding that the Minister announced to expand necessary homelessness provision for single men and women. The Association of Housing Advice Services, which is a non-profit organisation, estimates that London’s 32 boroughs alone will face a combined bill of £161 million to implement the new duties.

The full scale of the housing crisis is clearly beyond the scope of the amendment, but I am sure that in our advice surgeries we have all come across incidences of families struggling to find affordable accommodation near their workplaces or children’s schools. It is clear that the funding for the vital role that local authorities play in protecting the most vulnerable and in finding that most basic need, a home, is under severe pressure.

Another key statutory service that should surely be recognised by inclusion of amendment 31 in the Bill is children’s services. Looking after children is one of the most important statutory duties of councils, with a total of £11.1 billion a year spent on un-ring-fenced funding on children’s social care and education services. Again there has been an increase—60% since 2008—in the number of children requiring children protection plans. That is at a time when, from 2010 in the previous Parliament, councils lost 40% of their funding from central Government. The LGA estimated a £1.9 billion funding gap for those vital services by 2020.

For many councils, the pressure on children’s services is even more acute than that on adult social care. Three hundred and seventy-seven Sure Start centres have closed since 2010, with only eight opening in that time. That is the result, I suggest, of a spending cut on the centres of 47% in real terms. Sure Start centres have been crucial in supporting children from disadvantaged backgrounds during the vital early years before they reach school age, but again service cuts are diminishing such children’s prospects. Were amendment 31 on the statute book, Ministers might feel a little more reluctant to push such savage cuts through.

In the context of education and education services, will the Minister explain why the Government still intend to go through with the planned cut to the education services grant? It is entirely appropriate to ask that question in the context of amendment 31—let me explain why. The Education Secretary was correct in deciding not to proceed with the forced academisation programme of her predecessor. Under the proposed education-for- all Bill that would have delivered that programme, it would seem sensible for councils to lose their funding for their school improvement responsibilities—given that all schools would become academies. Forced academisation having been scrapped, however, we are left with a situation in which councils keep their school improvement responsibilities, although the funding is still being cut.

Local Government Finance Bill (Third sitting)

Debate between Gareth Thomas and Kevin Foster

Thursday 2nd February 2017 Public Bill Committees

[Mr Thomas]

Let us not go down that route. As I understand it, the hon. Members for Taunton Deane and for Somerton and Frome share a local care authority, Somerset County Council, which has cut social care spending by 6.2% in real terms. Northamptonshire County Council, which I believe the hon. Member for Northampton South knows well, has cut social care spending by 10.3% in real terms. Thurrock unitary authority, which serves the hon. Member for Thurrock and her constituents, has cut social care spending by 5.8%—a real-terms cut of 13.6%.

Of course, I do not want to leave out the hon. Member for Torbay. I understand that Torbay unitary authority plans to spend some £37.5 million on social care in this financial year, compared with £45.9 million in 2010-11—an 18.2% cut, or 25% in real terms.

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

I suspect that the hon. Gentleman can guess what is coming. He has listed the figures but, as I said when I challenged him in the Chamber, we did not hear his party pledge more money two years ago.

[Mr Thomas]

I hope the hon. Gentleman will come up with some other lines. He would not want to be a one-trick pony. [Interruption.]

[Mr Thomas]

I gently remind the hon. Member for Torbay that one of the areas of spending that we were very clear about was local government. We said that there would be a £30 billion extra spend for local authorities.

[Kevin Foster]

No, you didn’t! That is nonsense.

[Mr Thomas]

The hon. Gentleman can go and look at the evidence: it is called the Labour party manifesto 2015. It brings back sad memories when I look at it, but perhaps it will help to correct him and guide him in making future interventions.

Local Government Finance Bill

Debate between Gareth Thomas and Kevin Foster

2nd reading: House of Commons & Carry-over motion: House of Commons & Money resolution: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons & Ways and Means resolution: House of Commons
Monday 23rd January 2017 Commons Chamber

[Mr Thomas]

I admire the Minister’s wishful thinking in coming up with that fact. I gently suggest that he looks at his Department’s spending record on local council services. This year, councils will spend some £10 billion less than they spent in 2010-11. By 2020, according to the Local Government Association, councils will face a £5.8 billion gap just to fund statutory services. Since 2010, powers have been passed to councils without the necessary funding to go with them, so it is hardly surprising that sceptics wonder whether the Government are really interested in meaningful devolution, or just in devolving responsibility for cuts.

Every local authority has a list of lost services. The doors have shut on libraries, day centres and museums. Leisure centres, swimming pools and playing grounds have closed. Rural bus services, fire safety checks and youth services have been reduced, abandoned or shut. Legal advice services have been axed and women’s refuges have been lost. Investment in parks and street cleaning has been limited. All those services are treasured by local communities and represent vital lifelines for vulnerable residents.

[Kevin Foster]

It is interesting to hear the shadow Minister’s list. Can he remind me exactly how much extra funding the then shadow Chancellor, Ed Balls, promised as part of Labour’s plans for government in 2015?

[Mr Thomas]

If the hon. Gentleman looks at our manifesto, he will see that we committed to devolving £30 billion of additional spending from Whitehall to local government.

The Government like to pretend that it is simply ineffective management that stops councils providing key basic services, and that those local councils that are not making cuts to such services are managing their resources effectively. The former Prime Minister David Cameron, perhaps inadvertently, exposed the delusion best when he wrote to the Conservative leader of Oxfordshire County Council in 2015:

“I was disappointed at the long list of suggestions…to make significant cuts to frontline services—from elderly day centres, to libraries, to museums. This is in addition to the unwelcome and counter-productive proposals to close children’s centres across the county. I would have hoped that Oxfordshire would instead be…making back-office savings and protecting the frontline.”

That lack of understanding of the consequences of his own Government’s actions received the response it rightly deserved from the council leader, who wrote back to explain that some 2,800 council employees had already lost their jobs, that the remainder had experienced pay freezes or below-inflation pay increases for a number of years, and that assets had been sold off to fund revenue costs.

--- Later in debate ---

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Helen Hayes). The only observation I would make is that, as in many other speeches from the Opposition Benches, we heard a list of local authority funding and what happened in the last Parliament between 2010 and 2015, but I am drawn back to my earlier intervention on the shadow Minister. After nearly five years of complaints from the official Opposition about local authority funding, the then shadow Chancellor, now a “Strictly Come Dancing” star, was challenged about how much extra he would be putting in, with the plans until 2017 having been published, and the answer was nothing. It has therefore been interesting to hear some of what we have heard again tonight.

I came to this debate with high hopes, because, having read clause 9, I knew this would certainly not be a bog standard Second Reading debate.

[Mr Gareth Thomas]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Kevin Foster]

I am happy to give way—certainly on that point.

[Mr Thomas]

I have a copy of our 2015 election manifesto. It makes clear that we would have transferred £30 billion of funding to the city and county regions, so I hope that the hon. Gentleman will withdraw his remark.

[Kevin Foster]

The shadow Minister talks about transferring funding, but his party would have transferred responsibilities. When in January and February 2015 there was a direct challenge to the former Member for Morley and Outwood—it is interesting that he is the former Member—on how much extra Labour was going to put in, the answer was nothing. While there would have been a transfer, there certainly was not going to be anything extra after five long years of complaints. Perhaps that was also one reason why people did not have much confidence in the Labour party having a real programme for government and duly dealt it the electoral blow that surely had to follow, and that I suspect will soon follow again.

I want to go into the details of the Bill and explain why overall it is welcome. When I became the cabinet member for city development in Coventry—I had some quite constructive dealings with the hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham) at that time—as part of the training scheme we were briefed on what was called the Birmingham dilemma. Previously, councillors in Birmingham had chosen to spend money on regenerating the city, but of course to do that they had had to take money out of the services they were responsible for. While the regeneration had created new jobs and brought new business rates in, they took the blame for the cut in the services that they had had to make to fund it, and they did not get the reward when a significant amount of extra revenue was generated for the national Exchequer. We were briefed on that, and on how we could balance the fact that if we wanted to start regeneration or push forward a project as a local councillor, we did not get any of the reward for doing that financially; we only got the esoteric reward of being able to point to lower unemployment figures in our area or point out that the town centre was looking a bit better following the regeneration scheme. The incentives in terms of day-to-day profit and loss, or, rather, the revenue budget, were just not there. That is why the change to give local authorities more ability to retain the business rates growth they receive and remove that dilemma from local councils is welcome.

It is particularly good that we are now moving to 100% of that growth being retained. Of course in scrutinising this Bill in detail there will need to be some mechanism for when there is a sudden windfall; to be fair, that was touched on by the shadow Minister. Through a stroke of luck, a piece of national infrastructure might be dropped off in a district council area, but that might not necessarily be a sign of taking radical decisions for growth. Likewise, however, if a community is getting a piece of national infrastructure dropped off in its area, it is not unreasonable for it to want to get a direct reward from the business rates concerned.