Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Fiona O'Donnell and Sheila Gilmore

Wednesday 25th March 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sheila Gilmore]

Yes, it is gender-made law. We will all have received a considerable number of e-mails about that recently, and I am sure that the campaigners would be pleased to hear the Minister commit at least to reviewing the situation.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

On that issue, growing a beard is an option for a man, but being unhygienic is not an option for a woman. My local food bank is increasingly having to offer women sanitary products because they simply cannot afford them.

[Sheila Gilmore]

That is a very interesting piece of information, and it is something that people should bear in mind—

--- Later in debate ---

[Sheila Gilmore]

It is a great pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Redcar (Ian Swales), because we have served together on a number of Finance Bill Committees during the past five years. The debates on the details of a Finance Bill in Public Bill Committee are often better than those on the parts of the Bill taken on the Floor of the House. The theory is that the debates on the more important and bigger parts of the Bill are taken in the Chamber and then the Bill goes upstairs, but the Public Bill Committee often allows us to have quite fruitful debates on many of the issues.

One thing that has been very clear during this Government—perhaps this has always been the case, but it seems to be growing—is that all the political parties are falling over themselves to talk about the importance of small and medium-sized businesses, and we are all the friends of small business. Small businesses are probably very pleased to hear politicians talk so much about them, but then the issue becomes one of whether it is talk or action. It is very easy to praise small businesses, but such businesses, especially new ones, sometimes feel that the system is set against them.

One new business in my constituency involved two young women who set up a fitness studio. They went into premises on what was effectively a redevelopment area after our old hospital had been relocated. Largely because of the financial crash and the recession, the whole redevelopment took longer than expected, so the population to support new businesses had not arrived at the expected rate. Although they got a rent holiday for the first 18 months from the developer who was renting them their premises, which was welcome, they were struggling with business rates. Oddly, even though my local council said that it wanted to encourage economic development and had particularly encouraged the redevelopment of that site, it was not particularly forthcoming with help for a new business.

Those young women were not in the region of having to worry about corporation tax—that was not where their business was. They had to worry about the rates. It was touch and go, but I was pleased to see recently that they are still there and have managed to overcome their initial difficulties. Some of the other redevelopment is beginning to happen, so I hope that they will continue to be successful. However, we do not always join the dots either locally or nationally. Things such as rates are essential for a lot of small businesses, and we have to support such businesses to the greatest extent that we can.

I have some sympathy with the hon. Gentleman in his points about business rates being retained locally. We have to work through the conflict between that and redistribution to ensure that different areas of the country are assisted in developing. When I was on the council in Edinburgh, we often raised the issue. It was and still is an expanding city, and it generates a lot of business. We have big events that generate worldwide attention, and a lot of businesses feel that they bear the cost of all that without necessarily seeing the rates coming back to the city. It is all very well to say that we get rates in because we have events such as the festival and big tourist attractions, but sometimes it feels that the rates are not coming back. I understand the tension between that and looking at the region or country as a whole and trying to build wealth. It is not easy, but we have to incentivise businesses as far as possible to feel that keeping on growing is to their advantage as well as to wider advantage.

Politicians and political parties must not just pay lip service to the importance of small business. We must do specific things to assist, and that is what amendment 2, moved by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood), is intended to do.

The hon. Member for Redcar probably has a different view of economics from mine, but he appeared to be of the view that if a company is making a profit, it will be ploughing it back in the right directions. I do not think that is necessarily always the case. Big businesses in particular should make a good contribution to our society, and we have to ensure that they do. I urge the House to support the amendment.

[Fiona O’Donnell]

It is a pleasure to see you back in the Chair, Mr Hood.

I wish to talk particularly about the rural economy and the opportunities that the Government might be missing, given the importance of small and medium-sized enterprises to rural economies. Given that this may be my last contribution in this Parliament, I also want to reflect briefly on the political situation in Scotland.

We have had more than one eclipse in Scotland in recent weeks. It seems to be a daily occurrence that Alex Salmond’s moon blocks out Nicola Sturgeon’s sun. At one time, the current leader of the Scottish National party—people might easily be confused as to who that is these days, but I remind them that it is Nicola Sturgeon—did a U-turn on the SNP’s proposal in its White Paper “Scotland’s Future” to reduce corporation tax by 3%. I welcome that, because I do not think it would have been a progressive move or have provided the right environment for the stability, job creation, employment rights and pay and conditions that we want in a fair, modern and successful Scotland. The Minister may wish to reflect on that and the debate that went on around the referendum, because the measure was not popular with working people or businesses—certainly not with SMEs that would not have seen any benefit.

The Financial Secretary said that he does not want to do anything to risk the recovery, but I urge him to think about what more his Government can do to aid recovery in rural areas. Most of the conversation and discourse I have heard from Government Members—for example in the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill Committee—was about employment rights. The Minister seemed to think that the way to help small businesses was to erode workers’ rights, but I think that has the opposite effect because it can be more difficult for them to recruit staff.

Much as I admire the beautiful city of Edinburgh, our capital, I am concerned that so many people from my rural constituency commute there for work. At a time when the population of East Lothian is set to grow at the fastest rate of anywhere in Scotland, with 10,000 more homes, we need jobs in our own communities. We must look at the impact that the Budget will have on SMEs with 50 or more employees, and we are asking the Government to pause and reflect on what that impact might be.

We are losing many skills in local, rural and remote economies, especially in the construction industry—that relates to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood) about difficulties with lending. Small construction firms are finding it very difficult to access lending, which means that they are disadvantaged when it comes to procurement contracts. If they take on small housing developments in the community, the people working on the construction sites will often be local young men and women who are benefiting from an apprenticeship and learning skills, and they will be spending money in that local community. The healthy cycle of the rural economy is thus given new impetus and energy. Will the Minister at least reflect on that?

When small businesses fail, it does not make the headlines in the same way as when a large manufacturing company announces job losses. The news about Longannet, which is across the water from my constituency and where many of my constituents are employed, is deeply concerning. When a small business fails, it does not make the headlines in the same way, but for the rural economy and community it can be devastating. The village where I live in East Lothian, Pencaitland, has two village shops and a pub, and the thought that any of those could fold at any time would have a devastating impact on our community. At that point, community cohesion goes and the place becomes just a dormitory, somewhere people go to lay down their head at night, rather than the vibrant community we want.

We have heard much about devolution during this Parliament. When it comes to how we support and drive growth in the SME sector, we need to trust people at local authority and community level to make decisions about how businesses are supported, how they grow and create jobs and wealth, and how they provide sustainability. We must trust the people who know the area and the skill requirements to make those decisions. Talking about who gets to vote on what Bill does not have the same impact; it does not empower. It may take power away from individual MPs, but it does not empower communities, which is what devolution should be about.

I ask the Financial Secretary to consider the intervention I made on my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Ladywood who spoke from the Opposition Front Bench. What evidence do the Government have that cutting corporation tax will create more jobs than supporting SMEs, particularly in the rural context?

I am very grateful to Members who have been sitting patiently and silently for allowing me to make this pitch on behalf of the rural economy. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s comments.

Protecting Children Online

Debate between Fiona O'Donnell and Sheila Gilmore

Wednesday 12th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Sheila Gilmore]

I agree that we should take that problem very seriously, and should take action to deal with it.

This is not only about protecting children, although that is extremely important. It is also about protecting older young people, and about protecting adults and, hopefully, changing their views. I think that if certain types of behaviour are normalised and become commonplace, they will eventually be seen as broadly acceptable, and the relationships that are portrayed between men and women will be considered not unacceptable, but something that women themselves are almost expected to accept.

I think that it is important to deal with this. I thought that it was important many years ago when groups were campaigning about, for example, pornography in magazines, but this type of pornography is pervasive in a way that even that was not. Going to buy a magazine in a shop was a more difficult transaction for many people than what we now see happening in our homes.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Does my hon. Friend also think that ISPs have a vested interest in that regard? If adults had to opt in to view adult sites and pornography, that would almost certainly have an impact on business and the number of people choosing that option.

[Sheila Gilmore]

In many ways, I would hope that that was not the case. I do not know where the ISPs make their money, but many of us are critical of their reluctance in this matter. One or two Members have suggested today that, because some of the proposals would not be perfect and would not screen out everything and because some organisations and people might be clever enough to get around them in various technical ways that we do not necessarily fully understand, we should not take those steps. As in so much of our political and social lives, we should not make the best the enemy of the good. If we can do something to improve things, we should do it.

Finance (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Fiona O'Donnell and Sheila Gilmore

Thursday 18th April 2013 Commons Chamber

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Ms Primarolo—[Interruption]. We have just made it into the afternoon. It is also a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne North (Catherine McKinnell), who made such a strong case for the Opposition’s amendment to clause 1. It is to clause 1 in the main that I wish to address my remarks.

This week and in the days leading up to the funeral of Baroness Thatcher, Government Members have been proud to proclaim themselves as Thatcherites—no more talk of one nation Conservatives or how “We’re all in it together”. I was pleased that my hon. Friend spoke about the impact of this Government’s choices. That is what we are talking about today: their choices and priorities. Proportionately, they are hitting women so much harder than men, while the benefits they are seeking to give—reducing the 50p tax rate to 45p—will disproportionately benefit men.

That was certainly my experience as a woman at home caring for my children through the Thatcher years. I find it almost incomprehensible when I hear people talk about how much she did for women, because that was not my experience, as I genuinely struggled to put food on the table for my children and keep a roof over their heads. For me, the difference we saw in 1997, with the birth of a new Labour Government—new in every way—was predominantly in the increase in child benefit. That is what changed my ability as a mother to care for my children—to provide for them and give them a better life than I had had. This Government have chosen to freeze child benefit, while at the same time giving a tax break to 13,000 millionaires and 267,000 people earning more than £150,000. I would be interested to hear from the Minister—or from other Government Members, if it is not just the Minister who is going to speak on this issue—how many people earning more than £150,000 have come to his surgery or contacted his office to say that times are so tough that they need a tax break. How many people have contacted the Treasury to say that?

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

During this week, from Second Reading onwards, we have seen a dearth of speakers from the Government Benches, yet we have also seen a rise in unemployment figures and clear signs that on average people are facing real cuts in their earnings. Is it not extraordinary that Government Back Benchers seem not to want to speak?

[Fiona O'Donnell]

As ever, my hon. Friend makes a reasonable and forceful contribution to the debate. This is shocking complacency from Government Members—their constituents and mine will be watching them—as unemployment rises and as families face an average cut of £17 a week as a result of all the changes they have made since 2010.

Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [Lords]

Debate between Fiona O'Donnell and Sheila Gilmore

Monday 19th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

I am pleased to have the opportunity to speak in the debate and, in particular, to follow the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams). For Jenny-come-latelies like me, it is particularly valuable to hear about the journey the Bill has travelled before bringing us here today.

It is also not only a pleasurable experience but a unique one for me, as this is the first time my constituents have urged me to speak up in the Chamber in favour of something the Government are doing. I do not know whether that says more about my constituents or the Government. I hope that we are seeing a coming of age moment for this Government. Let me take my first opportunity to welcome the new Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson), to her position. I hope that this is a coming of age moment when the Government realise that the market when left to its own devices does not always work in a way that allows them to sit back and turn a blind eye.

The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) spoke about just how dysfunctional the relationship has become among the major supermarkets, the food producers and consumers, which means that it is time for the Government to act and intervene. The balance of power is so out of kilter that it is legitimate even for this Government to intervene to regulate. I hope that the new Minister—well, the relatively new Minister—will keep that feeling in her heart and consider it when it comes to the big energy suppliers and the payday loan companies. There is always a point at which her Government can say that enough is enough and that it is time for them to intervene.



East Lothian has some of the most beautiful and fertile agricultural land in the whole of this nation. The farmers in my constituency are facing a particularly difficult time after the bad summer that we had. Many of the crops will not yield what farmers had hoped for, and I hope for them that the Bill will offer some hope. We will judge the Bill on how it delivers for many of the hopes that we have. As well as a better future for farmers, I hope it will give them the opportunity to innovate, and that they will have the confidence to do that, now that they know there will be fairness in the supply chain.

The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan spoke about the importance for her farmers of having pillar 1 funding from the common agricultural policy. I hope farmers, especially smaller food producers, will see the Bill as an opportunity to plant for the future with some certainty. As farming is a major employer in my constituency, I hope this will lead to the creation of more jobs and improve the working conditions and pay of many of those who work in the agricultural sector and who, with the abolition of the Agricultural Wages Boards, have lost the security that they have enjoyed for decades as a result of the intervention of a previous Labour Government.

I pay tribute to the many Members who, over the years, have succeeded in building a consensus across the House. There is a very different feeling in the Chamber tonight. I was impressed, as I often am, by the words of the shadow Business, Innovation and Skills Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South (Ian Murray), when he said that we have an opportunity to make a good Bill a better Bill. I very much hope that the Government will take that opportunity in Committee and that they will be open to opportunities to improve and strengthen the Bill. I stress to my hon. Friend that this is not a pitch to join him on the Public Bill Committee. One can have too much of a good thing. I previously sat with him on the Committee that considered the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill, where the many valuable contributions that he brought to the debate in that forum were unfortunately spurned by the Government.

We have already seen attempts to improve the Bill, some of which the Government have responded to positively. I hope we continue to see that spirit. I spoke about how we are to judge the Bill. I wish that on Report in the Lords, the Government had accepted an amendment that would have built into the Bill a point at which the Government will review progress. I hope both Ministers were listening to the Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), when she said that her Committee believed that that would strengthen the Bill.

We have heard from various Select Committees and many organisations. I particularly thank ActionAid and Oxfam for the briefings that they have provided on the general debate about food security. I hope Ministers will realise that not just in this place, but out there in a variety of organisations, there is concern about the need to review the Bill and consider further powers for the groceries adjudicator.

I came this evening not to bury the big four supermarkets, but more to praise them. There have been real tensions in communities in my constituency. We are a constituency of small communities and the arrival of out-of-town supermarkets has threatened the future of the town high street and the marketplace. The community has responded positively by innovating, but it will be another test of the Bill if it brings further benefits to high streets that are struggling to compete with the big supermarkets. We have some wonderful specialty shops in East Lothian, in places such as Haddington, North Berwick and Dunbar—some up-market delicatessens where it is a pleasure to browse and shop. It is one of the strengths of East Lothian and why people visit it.

However, there is also a place for the supermarkets and I want to put on record my support for them. Many of my constituents need somewhere on their doorstep where they can buy a cheap school uniform and get the basic range of food and provisions. I do not deny that there is a role for supermarkets, but I want to see the balance maintained in my constituency. Many others in the House no doubt have a similar situation and want to see our town centres grow, thrive, innovate, contribute to the local economy and create jobs.

I welcome the fact that the Government have changed their mind and listened to the concerns about third-party evidence. Will the Minister give us a little more detail? Many producers fear for their future if word gets round. We see blacklisting in other professions. What is the meat of the Bill that will protect those food producers? A little more detail on that would be useful, as would any plans the Government have for improving clause 18.

We have talked about trade associations and trade unions being able to provide evidence, but we have not yet heard whether campaigning bodies will be able to do so. It is very reassuring and I welcome all that, so I wonder why the Government bothered to include in the Bill the power to rescind that, a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith)—I hope I have pronounced the name of her constituency correctly; the guttural Scots tongue comes in useful at times. The Government can send some important messages by setting out certain provisions in the Bill. What message do they send the big retailers if the Government are not sure whether or not to include that power? It is a bit of a hokey-cokey clause.

I also have concerns that I am sure Ministers will recognise. We have heard from Members on both sides of the House and from all parties about the effectiveness of naming and shaming. The Minister tried to press Opposition Front Benchers on the size of proposed fines, so I will now press for some detail on what form the naming and shaming will take. She spoke about the possibility of retailers having to place notices in the national press. Will the adjudicator be able to specify the size of those notices and what newspapers they should appear in? Will it just be national newspapers, or will it include local newspapers, which are struggling to raise revenue in the current economic climate? Also, local people often trust more what they read in their local press. It would be good to hear a little more detail about where the retailers will be named and shamed.

Furthermore, what evidence do the Government have that naming and shaming actually works, because we seem to see the opposite? One example is this House. We have come through the expenses scandal—I hope—although it does not always feel that way, but when we ask people on the street which party is worse when it comes to the abuse of MPs’ expenses, the reaction is pretty much this: “You’re all the same and all as bad as each other.” I wonder whether that could be consumers’ approach to the retailers. They might not distinguish between the supermarkets, all the information would simply be lost in a blur and there would be an overall perception that there is something rather fishy going on. I really do not think that consumers will use that power and information to hurt an individual major retailer where it hurts—in the pocket. If there is evidence to the contrary, it would be good to hear it.

The Minister spoke about where we have seen consumer power, but that has often been in relation to a single product range or an unethical issue. In the meantime, supermarkets have continued to enjoy large profits. In my constituency the choice is between only two major retailers. Because of the distance between the Asda store in Dunbar and the Tesco store in Haddington, consumers have to travel quite a journey to exercise that right. I will say at this point that Sainsbury’s is coming to Haddington. I am not plugging them so that they sponsor my Christmas card, like that of my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South, but perhaps that is a negotiation I might enter into after the debate. Sainsbury’s has shown good practice in working locally to build a vision for Haddington town centre, so that conflicting concerns can be balanced and the livelihood and sustainability of a town centre can be preserved while the out-of-town option is there.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Given the clear balance in the speeches that have been made today across the House, would not it be good if Ministers, rather than just waiting for the Bill to go to Committee, said now that they would table the kinds of amendments that everyone seems to be asking for—for example to introduce fines at an early stage?

Pensions Bill [Lords]

Debate between Fiona O'Donnell and Sheila Gilmore

Tuesday 18th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Sheila Gilmore]

We are talking about a spending period over 10 years, so it is not equivalent to the budget in a given year. Even in those terms, we are always making choices, and I will not accept lessons from a party with many members who are publicly saying that, as quickly as possible, they want to reduce or take away the 50% tax rate. That is something they are keen to do and that is their choice. They can make the case for it, but if they bring that proposal forward, I for one will certainly oppose it. That is another way of deciding how money is going to be spent and how money is going to be collected—and that is only one example.

In an earlier intervention, I mentioned the pension tax relief system, which gives a huge amount of money to people who already have a lot of money. If someone wants to save £100 into their pension pot and they are on 20% tax, in order to get £200 tax relief they have to find £800 from their pocket, but if someone is on 50% tax, they have to find only half the amount they want to save. That is unfair; it is a subsidy to those who already have a lot of income and assets. If at the end of this decade we are finding it difficult to make ends meet and we cannot help the group of women we are talking about, perhaps we should be thinking about that system.

The women who are affected by the measure will be making exactly those comparisons. They know that choices are made in politics and that choices are made by Governments, and they know that it is not impossible for the Government to change their mind on this proposal. They did not campaign for it during the election; indeed one of my hon. Friends has suggested that it was probably drawn up in a great hurry and seemed like a good wheeze at the time, but it puts a particular burden on a group of women many of whom cannot easily afford the changes. I want to emphasise, as several of my colleagues have done, that it should not be assumed that these women have a job and can just go on doing that job, or that they will still be in that job in three, four or five years’ time.

[Fiona O’Donnell]

Does my hon. Friend agree that those 500,000 women will also be asking, “Why us? Why not the banks or the bankers?” Why are they being made to pay? This is not just a question of economics but a question of right and wrong—and this is clearly wrong.

[Sheila Gilmore]

I could not have put it better myself.

Another question that the Minister has to answer is whether the Government, in looking for the savings they plan to make by going down this road, have put into the mix the additional costs that might arise in relation to some of these women, some of whom will not be able to work and might claim benefits. Some might claim jobseeker’s allowance for a period and others might claim employment and support allowance if they are in ill health, although some of them will find that those benefits are cut off very quickly in certain circumstances because of other Government proposals. They will then be thrown back to spending any savings they may have made towards retirement.

A woman in her 50s or early 60s who finds herself in that position may not be able to claim benefit for very long. If she has a partner or has savings of any sort she will not be eligible for the means-tested benefits that come in after six months in the case of JSA and that, under Government proposals, will be lost after a year even for people who are unfit to work and are in a work-related activity group. They will find themselves eating up—literally in some cases—their savings to make it through to their postponed retirement date. Of course, at that stage, those women will no doubt have to claim additional top-ups to help their financial situation. I would like to be satisfied that the Government have taken those costs into account. The women themselves will have to meet extra costs, and so will the Government. The proposal is ill-thought-out and there has been a lot of time to rethink it. Like all the women who have been campaigning on this, I am extremely disappointed that the Government are not prepared to support our amendment tonight.

Scotland Bill

Debate between Fiona O'Donnell and Sheila Gilmore

Monday 14th March 2011 Commons Chamber

[Fiona O'Donnell]

I will withdraw my remark, then, and acknowledge the humility that we have now heard from the hon. Gentleman. Up until 20 February, however, we had seen none of the details of the SNP proposals. I have sometimes accused Conservative Members of shotgun legislation, and I have to level that accusation against him as well.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that one reason why we do not need to table copious amendments is that we took part in the deliberations of the Calman commission and in all the consultation related to it?

[Fiona O'Donnell]

I absolutely agree. The whole process has been about consultation, and at some point the SNP has to admit that perhaps the reason why it has been outside the process, and why it had to file a minority report, is that it is just plain wrong on this issue. I genuinely appeal to SNP Members to pause and consider whether Unionist parties would really advance legislation that would put Scotland and the Union at risk.

I am tempted to think that spring has come to the House, because what we have heard today is not the sound of chickens but the sound of constitutional cuckoos. That is what SNP Members are. They allow others to do the work and build the nest, then they come and try to throw our eggs out.