Census (Return Particulars and Removal Of Penalties) Bill [Lords]

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Kevin Foster

3rd reading: House of Commons & Committee: 1st sitting: House of Commons
Monday 7th October 2019 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

As indicated on the Order Paper, Mr Speaker has certified that clause 1 relates exclusively to England and Wales and is within devolved legislative competence. As the Bill has not been amended during Committee, there is no change to that certification.

The appropriate consent motion has been tabled. Does the Minister intend to move it?

[Kevin Foster]

indicated assent.

The House forthwith resolved itself into the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) (Standing Order No. 83M).

[Dame Eleanor Laing in the Chair]

[The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I beg the Whip’s pardon; this sort of yo-yo-type procedure can be a little confusing. In order to avoid confusion, I remind hon. Members that, if there is a Division, only Members representing constituencies in England and Wales may vote on the consent motion for England and Wales.

Resolved,

That the Committee consents to the following certified Clause of the Census (Return Particulars and Removal of Penalties) Bill [Lords]—

Clauses certified under Standing Order No. 83J as relating exclusively to England and Wales and being within devolved legislative competence

Clause 1 of the Bill (Bill 412).—(Kevin Foster.)

Question agreed to.

The occupant of the Chair left the Chair to report the decision of the Committee (Standing Order No. 83M(6)).

The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair; decision reported.

Third Reading

Middle Level Bill

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Kevin Foster

Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Bill: House of Commons
Tuesday 16th October 2018 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

I beg to move, That this House agrees with Lords amendment 1.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

With this it will be convenient to consider Lords amendments 2 to 20.

[Kevin Foster]

This debate marks the end of a detailed process of parliamentary scrutiny of the Bill, which has both been welcome and led to significant changes and improvements to it. That process has been followed tenaciously by my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch (Sir Christopher Chope), who is in his place today and who I am sure will again give us the benefit of his thoughts on their lordships’ amendments. It must be said that the Bill is better for the scrutiny it has had in both Houses, with its Opposed Bill Committee in the other place having been chaired by Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd, a former Lord Chief Justice.

Today’s debate focuses on the 20 amendments made by their lordships, resulting from the concerns raised in the Opposed Bill Committee, further to refine the Bill to ensure that its purpose is clear, that the powers it grants are proportionate and that the needs of all users of the Middle Level, including those who rely on it for drainage and for whom it is their home—that has been a particular issue of debate throughout the process—are properly considered. I have spoken at length with the promoters, and they support the Lords amendments and urge Members to accept them.

To give a brief history of the Bill for those who have perhaps not followed it quite as closely as I have had the pleasure of doing, it was originally introduced to the House in November 2016 and had its First Reading on 24 January 2017. It was debated on Second Reading on 29 March 2017, when my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch and I had the opportunity to debate it at some length. A motion to revive the Bill in the new Session of Parliament followed the general election and was agreed by this House on 17 October 2017, and the House of Lords agreed to the revival of the Bill on 25 October 2017. The Bill went before an Opposed Bill Committee of the House of Commons on 15 to 17 January 2018, and consideration of the Bill as amended in Committee took place in this Chamber on 28 February. On Third Reading, the Bill passed without a Division.

My gratitude goes to my hon. Friend the Member for Solihull (Julian Knight)—sadly, he is not able to join us for this debate—who chaired the Opposed Bill Committee of this House and made some valuable contributions. In fact, my hon. Friend the Member for Christchurch highlighted on Third Reading how valuable it had been to hear on Report the contribution of the Chairman of the Opposed Bill Committee, as it meant that we could further explore some of the issues that had been presented there.

The passage of the Bill in the other place has been slightly quicker, as there was no intervening general election to cause an issue with its consideration. Its formal First Reading in the other place took place on 1 March this year and its formal Second Reading on Thursday 22 March. It was then considered for five days in June by an Opposed Bill Committee, chaired by the eminent jurist Lord Thomas of Cwmgiedd. He and the Committee brought a good level of scrutiny to it, ensuring that we have a very good Bill. I think that we can have every confidence in agreeing with their lordships today and then seeing this legislation enacted.

My understanding is that the Committee in the other place heard evidence from four of the seven petitioners against the Bill. Two of the petitioners had withdrawn their petitions and one was held not to have a right to be heard by the Committee, although I understand from speaking to the agents of the promoters that that person was still able to speak by providing evidence on behalf of one of the petitioners. To be clear, everyone has had a strong chance to put their views. Three of the petitioners had also appeared before the Opposed Bill Committee of this House.

The Middle Level Commissioners proposed amendments to the Bill in response to the concerns raised by the petitioners and members of the Committee. They also gave the Committee a number of undertakings that are not part of the Bill. However, I will turn to them in a few moments, because Members may find it helpful to know the reasons behind some of the undertakings given, as well as the reasons why they were given as formal undertakings to the Committee rather than incorporated as amendments to the Bill.

The amended Bill received formal Third Reading in the other place on 12 September this year, and we are now here to consider the Lords amendments. The promoter considers that the amendments do not extend or materially change the substance of the proposals in the Bill as earlier passed by this House, but they do provide some advantages.

Lords amendment 1 addresses a concern regarding small unpowered pleasure vessels. People may wonder what on earth that might mean. The amendment provides that vessels such as canoes and kayaks should not be included in the charging regime introduced by the Bill. However, when I speak about one of the other Lords amendments, I will explain that there may be a reasonable way—comparable with a similar system used on other waterways—to seek a contribution from those using the waterway for such purposes towards the costs of maintaining the waterway for navigation. This amendment is part of ensuring that the Bill is proportionate, and—to be blunt—to ensure that someone using a canoe or kayak does not find themselves being charged as if they were putting a pleasure boat down the waterway. It speaks to the socially inclusive nature of the use of the Middle Level; it is not just about those with large motor boats or significant amounts of money.

Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Kevin Foster

3rd reading: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Friday 11th May 2018 Commons Chamber

[Kevin Foster (Torbay) (Con)]

I beg to move amendment 1, page 2, line 11, in the schedule, leave out ‘parent’ and insert ‘primary care giver’.

This amendment would widen the provision to include those who are not ‘parents’ but were the main carer of the deceased child.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Amendment 2, page 2, line 11, after ‘parent’, insert

‘or grandparent where they were the primary carer of the child.’

This amendment would widen the provision to include grandparents where they were the primary carer of the deceased child.

Amendment 3, page 2, leave out line 22.

This amendment would remove the ability to set the period within which the leave may be taken.

Amendment 22, page 2, line 22, at end insert,

“, including arrangements for taking the entitled leave at different points within the period specified in subsection (6).”

This amendment would ensure that regulations on parental bereavement leave provide flexibility on when the entitled leave can be taken.

Amendment 4, page 2, line 25, leave out ‘two’ and insert ‘four’.

This amendment would increase the minimum time off from work from two to four weeks.

Amendment 5, page 2, leave out lines 26 to 28.

This amendment would remove any deadline for when the leave must be taken.

Amendment 23, page 2, line 27, leave out ‘56 days’ and insert ‘52 weeks’.

This amendment would extend the period of time within which parental bereavement leave must be taken from 56 days to 52 weeks

Amendment 6, page 3, line 1, leave out

‘“child” means a person under the age of 18;’.

This amendment would mean that parental bereavement leave would apply to a child of any age, not just those below the age of 18.

Amendment 24, page 3, line 1, leave out from ‘a’ to end of line 3 and insert

‘son or daughter of any age’.

This amendment would change the definition of “child”, for the purpose of parental bereavement leave, to a son or daughter of any age.

Amendment 7, page 3, line 11, after ‘absence,’ insert ‘save for remuneration’.

This amendment would make clear that the employee is not entitled to contractual pay for the leave.

Amendment 8, page 3, line 18, leave out

‘a job of a kind prescribed by regulations,’

and insert

‘the job in which they were employed before their absence,’.

Amendment 11, page 4, leave out lines 8 to 17.

This amendment would remove the power to make regulations providing for notices, or make provision for any consequences as a result of failing to give notice, or failure to keep records of notice or comply with other procedural requirements.

Amendment 10, page 4, leave out lines 8 to 10.

This amendment would remove the requirement to give any notice to take leave.

Amendment 9, page 4, line 8, after ‘about’ insert ‘reasonable’.

This amendment would create a requirement of giving a reasonable notice period before taking the leave.

Amendment 12, page 5, line 9, leave out ‘parent’ and insert ‘primary care giver’.

This amendment would widen the provision to include those who are not ‘parents’ but were the main carer of the deceased child.

Amendment 13, page 5, line 11, leave out from ‘employer’ to end of line 12.

This amendment would remove the qualifying period to make the pay element a day one right.

Amendment 15, page 5, leave out from the start of line 40 to the end of line 2 on page 6.

This amendment would remove the requirement to give notice, and how to give notice in order to receive parental bereavement pay.

Amendment 16, page 5, line 44, after ‘which’ insert ‘reasonable’.

This amendment would require the individual to give a reasonable amount of notice for taking bereavement pay.

Amendment 17, page 6, leave out lines 1 and 2 and insert—

“(3) Employers must accept notice given in writing, face to face, by telephone or through a third party on behalf of the bereaved parent.”

This amendment would remove the requirement to give notice in writing, allowing this to be given in conversation or through a third party on their behalf.

Amendment 18, page 6, leave out from start of line 48 to end of line 2 on page 7.

This amendment would remove the liability of HMRC to pay statutory bereavement pay.

Amendment 19, page 7, line 13, leave out ‘two’ and insert ‘four’.

This amendment would increase the payment for bereavement pay from a minimum of two to four weeks.

Amendment 20, page 7, leave out lines 18 to 21.

This amendment would remove the requirement for bereavement pay to be paid within at least 56 days.

Amendment 21, page 9, line 18, leave out

‘“child” means a person under the age of 18’.

This amendment would mean that parental bereavement pay would apply to a child of any age, not just those below the age of 18.

Amendment 25, page 9, line 18, leave out from ‘a’ to end of line 20 and insert

‘son or daughter of any age’.

This amendment would change the definition of “child”, for the purpose of parental bereavement pay, to a son or daughter of any age.

[Kevin Foster]

It makes a change to be called first in a Friday debate. [Interruption] Yes, or ever. I usually have to wait for at least three or four hours before being called.

First, let me make it clear that I fully support the Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), and I have no intention of attempting to make a monumentally long speech to talk it out. However, my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Michael Tomlinson) and I wish to test some of the provisions, particularly in the schedule. We do not propose amendments to the two main clauses; our amendments are only to the schedule, as we would like to hear a bit more about some aspects of it and to test the reaction of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton and the Minister to some of our amendments.

This is a simple Bill; it has just two clauses, one of which is the title clause. However, the attached schedule requires further debate and scrutiny on the Floor of the House. I should make it clear that no employee in the country would ever want to benefit from the Bill’s provisions, as it addresses what would undoubtedly be one of the most difficult periods in anyone’s life; all parents and grandparents will want to see their children and grandchildren live long and happy lives. However, it is to be welcomed that the House is talking about this subject today, and we hope that the Bill will receive its Third Reading and head off to the other place. The Bill demonstrates how MPs can in this place draw on their personal experiences to make a difference for others who might have to deal with similar experiences. I accept that some of the issues we will be discussing today might have been debated in the Bill Committee, but, sadly, I was not lucky enough to be selected to serve on it, which is why I raise them on Report.

In the interests of brevity, I will talk about my amendments in groups, according to the themes they cover, rather than go through each one individually. Also, some of the amendments work in combination to offer distinct packages that address particular themes, and in these cases it would not make sense to pass one amendment but not another, as that would create odd law.

The amendments cover four distinct themes. The first deals with people who act as the parent but are not the biological parent, such as a primary carer who has picked up the reins when things go wrong; that is addressed by my amendments 1 and 2 and amendment 12 from my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole. The second theme is the issue of when leave may be taken, given that some people might wish to work in the immediate aftermath of losing a child but subsequently find that grief requires them to take time off at a slightly later date; not everyone reacts in the same way. This area is addressed by my amendments 3 and 5, amendments 22 and 23 in the name of the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) and amendments 15, 16, 17 and 20 from my hon. Friend.

The third theme involves the requirement to give notice and, given the nature of this provision, my proposal for a requirement to give reasonable notice instead. This is covered in my amendments 9, 10 and 11. The fourth theme relates to the cut-off created by the 18th birthday and the proposals to change the definition of a child so that the provisions refer not only to sons and daughters under the age of 18. This is covered by amendments 6, 24 and 21. Finally there are three more amendments that I will speak to specifically: amendments 4, 7 and 8.

I shall start with the first theme. Sometimes, the person acting as a parent is not the biological parent. They could be a primary carer who has picked up the reins when things have gone wrong. Amendments 1, 2 and 12 cover this area. I think that we would all agree that parenting is not just about biology. It is not just about who has physically created a child, as we see with egg and sperm donor births. My concern is that if the Bill is passed without amendment to the schedule, there could be too much focus on the parent, rather than on the person who has done the parenting by looking after the child, bringing them up and loving and caring for them. The amendments will make it clearer that this is about the primary care giver—the person who is acting as the parent. I would be interested to hear my hon. Friend’s views on this and those of the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, my hon. Friend the Member for Watford (Richard Harrington). We would not want to get into a situation where the person or couple who were acting as the parents could not take time off, yet an estranged biological parent could do so.