Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Edward Argar

Consideration of Lords amendments
Wednesday 30th March 2022 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Health (Edward Argar)]

I beg to move Government amendment (a) to Lords amendment 91.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Lords amendment 91.

Lords amendment 85, and Government motion to disagree.

Lords amendment 86, and Government motion to disagree.

Lords amendment 87, and Government motion to disagree.

Lords amendment 88, and Government motion to disagree.

Lords amendment 92, Government motion to disagree, and Government amendment (a) in lieu.

Lords amendment 95, Government motion to disagree, and Government amendment (a) in lieu.

Lords amendments 52 to 54, 66 to 79, 82, 84, 93, 94, 96 to 101 and 109 to 122.

Lords amendment 123, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendment 124, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendment 125, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendment 126, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendment 127, and amendment (a) thereto.

Lords amendments 128 and 129.

[Edward Argar]

It is a pleasure to debate their lordships’ amendments and to serve opposite the hon. Member for Tooting (Dr Allin-Khan) for our consideration of this group of amendments—I do not usually do so as our portfolios do not always overlap. The amendments in the group all relate to questions of patient safety, patient engagement, public health and building a learning culture in the NHS.

First, may I put on record how proud I am that the Government are protecting the safety of women and girls through the hymenoplasty amendment, which I know has cross-party agreement? I will run through the amendments and concessions that the Government have made on a number of aspects of the Bill before turning to the perhaps more contentious areas in the group. We have tabled amendments to ban the carrying out, offering and aiding and abetting of hymenoplasty in the United Kingdom. We have accepted all the recommendations of the expert panel on hymenoplasty and agree that the procedure is inextricably linked to virginity testing and violence and that it has no place in our society. I offer my gratitude to all the members of that expert panel, to those who have campaigned so long and so hard on the issue and to my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Mr Holden) for his continued hard work to protect vulnerable women and girls.

I urge the House to support amendments 84, 96 and 129, which create a licensing regime for non-surgical cosmetic procedures.

--- Later in debate ---

[Edward Argar]

I beg to move, that this House disagrees with Lords amendment 29.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Lords amendment 30, and Government motion to disagree.

Lords amendment 48, Government motion to disagree, Government amendment (a) in lieu, and amendment (b) in lieu.

Lords amendment 57, and Government motion to disagree.

Lords amendment 89, Government motion to disagree, and Government amendment (a) in lieu.

Lords amendment 108, and Government motion to disagree.

Lords amendments 42 to 47, 55, 56 and 58 to 64.

[Edward Argar]

It is a pleasure in discussing this set of amendments to be facing the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Ilford North (Wes Streeting), although I might not say that after he has made his contribution or challenged me. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak to this important set of amendments, and I again put on record my gratitude to their lordships for the work they have done in scrutinising this Bill. This group is about accountability and makes it clearer that the Government are committed to ensuring that the NHS is transparent, accountable and effective.

Lords amendments 42 to 47 ensure that the procurement regulations will have to include provision for procurement processes and objectives; for steps to be taken when competitively tendering; and for transparency, fairness, the verification of compliance and the management of conflicts of interest. They also require NHS England to issue guidance on the regulations. It behoves me to pay tribute to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bristol South (Karin Smyth), who served on the Bill Committee throughout. Although we did not always agree, she brought her expertise and forensic skills with issues such as this to that Committee. Even if she did not always agree with the conclusions, she made sure we were well informed in the conclusions we reached.

We recognise those key aspects as vital. While it was always our intention to include them in the new provider selection regime, the amendments add clarity and clearly signal our intentions. Furthermore, Lords amendment 47 makes the regulations subject to the affirmative procedure. We are grateful for the input of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in advising that, and we have listened.

Lords amendment 55, supported by the Scottish Government, makes it clear that any powers or duties conferred on Scottish Ministers in relation to their role in collecting information for medicine information systems can be treated in the same way as other NHS powers or duties in Scotland and be delegated to health boards in Scotland.

Lords amendments 56 and 58 to 64 relate to the power to transfer the functions of arm’s length bodies. Following constructive engagement with the devolved Governments, these amendments enable us to proceed on a UK-wide basis. Lords amendment 56 clarifies that the powers in part 3 of the Bill in respect of special health authorities apply in relation only to England and cross-border special health authorities, and not Wales-only special health authorities. Lords amendments 58 and 59 remove devolved Ministers and Welsh NHS trusts from the list of appropriate persons to whom property, rights and liabilities can be transferred through a transfer scheme following a transfer of functions.

Lords amendment 60 creates a requirement for the Government to obtain the consent of the devolved Governments for any transfer of functions within the competence of their legislatures or which modify functions exercised by the Welsh Ministers, Scottish Ministers or a Northern Ireland Department. Finally, Lords amendments 61 to 64 are consequential upon the changes made by Lords amendment 60.

I am also asking the House to disagree with several amendments made in the other place. First, Lords amendment 29 relates to the workforce, and I reassure the House that the Government are committed to improving workforce planning. We recognise the importance of having a properly trained workforce in sufficient numbers and in the right places. We are already taking the steps we need to ensure we have record numbers of staff working in the NHS. While we recognise the strength of feeling behind the amendment, we simply do not think it is necessary in its current form, and we urge the House to reject it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Edward Argar]

I think that was exactly five seconds, and I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. I suspect that colleagues across Government will have heard what he said and will pay very careful attention to it, as I know Ministers across Government do to all that my right hon. Friend says in this House.

With that in mind, I ask the House to accept the motions in my name on the amendment paper.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I congratulate the Minister on his perfect timing. That is very rarely done with such precision.

Question put, That this House disagrees with Lords amendment 29.

Covid-19: Purchasing Effort

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Edward Argar

Thursday 3rd February 2022 Commons Chamber

[Edward Argar]

The NHS and the Department get their annual budgets and spend them on what is necessary to meet the health and care needs of the nation. On the hon. Gentleman’s specific point, he might characterise the £33.9 billion increase by 2023-24, which we have enshrined in law, as part of the Brexit dividend.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

And finally, I call Jim Shannon.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Edward Argar

Report stage
Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Health (Edward Argar)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Government new clause 37—Offence of offering to carry out virginity testing: England and Wales.

Government new clause 38—Offence of aiding or abetting etc a person to carry out virginity testing: England and Wales.

Government new clause 39—Virginity testing offences in England and Wales: penalties.

Government new clause 40—Offence of virginity testing: Scotland.

Government new clause 41—Offence of offering to carry out virginity testing: Scotland.

Government new clause 42—Offence of aiding or abetting etc a person to carry out virginity testing: Scotland.

Government new clause 43—Virginity testing offences in Scotland: penalties and supplementary.

Government new clause 44—Offence of virginity testing: Northern Ireland.

Government new clause 45—Offence of offering to carry out virginity testing: Northern Ireland.

Government new clause 46—Offence of aiding or abetting etc a person to carry out virginity testing: Northern Ireland.

Government new clause 47—Virginity testing offences in Northern Ireland: penalties.

Government new clause 48—Virginity testing: consequential amendments.

New clause 1—Licensing of aesthetic non-surgical cosmetic procedures—

“(1) No person may carry on an activity to which this subsection applies—

(a) except under the authority of a licence for the purposes of this section, and

(b) other than in accordance with specified training.

(2) Subsection (1) applies to an activity relating to the provision of aesthetic non-surgical procedures which is specified for the purposes of the subsection by regulations made by the Secretary of State.

(3) A person commits an offence if that person contravenes subsection (1).

(4) The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision about licences and conditions for the purposes of this section.

(5) Before making regulations under this section, the Secretary of State must consult the representatives of any interests concerned which the Secretary of State considers appropriate.

(6) Regulations may, in particular—

(a) require a licensing authority not to grant a licence unless satisfied as to a matter specified in the regulations; and

(b) require a licensing authority to have regard, in deciding whether to grant a licence, to a matter specified in the regulations.”

This new clause gives the Secretary of State the power to introduce a licensing regime for aesthetic non-surgical cosmetic procedures and makes it an offence for someone to practise without a licence. The list of treatments, detailed conditions and training requirements would be set out in regulations after consultation with relevant stakeholders.

New clause 12—Protection of the title of “nurse”—

“(1) A person may not practise or carry on business under any name, style or title containing the word ‘nurse’ unless that person is registered with the Nursing and Midwifery Council and entered in sub part 1 or 2 of the register as a Registered Nurse or in the specialist community public health nursing part of the register.

(2) Subsection (1) does not prevent any use of the designation ‘veterinary nurse’, ‘dental nurse’ (for which see section 36K of the Dentists Act 1984) or ‘nursery nurse’.

(3) A person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level four on the standard scale.”

New clause 21—Prohibition of virginity testing—

“(1) A person is guilty of an offence if they attempt to establish that another person is a virgin by making physical contact with their genitalia.

(2) A person is guilty of an offence if they provide another person with a product intended for the purpose, or purported purpose, of establishing whether another person is a virgin.

(3) A person is guilty of an offence if they aid, abet, counsel or procure a person to establish that another person is a virgin by making physical contact with their genitalia.

(4) No offence is committed by an approved person who performs—

(a) a surgical operation on a person which is necessary for their physical or mental health; or

(b) a surgical operation on a female who is in any stage of labour, or has just given birth, for purposes connected with the labour or birth.

(5) The following are approved persons—

(a) in relation to an operation falling within subsection (4)(a), a registered medical practitioner; and

(b) in relation to an operation falling within subsection (5)(b), a registered medical practitioner, a registered midwife or a person undergoing a course of training with a view to becoming such a practitioner or midwife.

(6) There is also no offence committed by a person who—

(a) performs a surgical operation falling within subsection (4)(a) or (b) outside the United Kingdom; and

(b) in relation to such an operation exercises functions corresponding to those of an approved person.

(7) For the purpose of determining whether an operation is necessary for the mental health of a girl it is immaterial whether she or any other person believes that the operation is required as a matter of custom or ritual.

(8) This section applies to any act done outside the United Kingdom by a United Kingdom national or resident.

(9) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months, to a fine, or to both.

(10) The court must refer the case of any person guilty of an offence under this section who is subject to statutory professional regulation for investigation by the relevant regulator.”

New clause 22—Prohibition of hymenoplasty—

2(1) A person is guilty of an offence if they undertake a surgical procedure for the purpose of re-attaching membrane tissue, creating scar tissue or otherwise attempting to re-create the hymen in the vagina of a patient.

(2) A person is guilty of an offence if they advertise the service of hymenoplasty or any service that purports to ‘re-virginise’ or otherwise re-create or re-attach the hymen of a patient by way of surgical procedure.

(3) A person is guilty of an offence if they aid, abet, counsel or procure a person to undertake a surgical procedure for the purpose of re-attaching membrane tissue, creating scar tissue or otherwise attempting to or re-creating the hymen in the vagina of a patient.

(4) This section applies to any act done outside the United Kingdom by a United Kingdom national or resident.

(5) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section is liable, on conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years.

(6) The court must refer the case of any person guilty of an offence under this section who is subject to statutory professional regulation for investigation by the relevant regulator.”

New clause 28—Secretary of State’s duty to report on long term workforce planning—

“(1) The Secretary of State must prepare and publish a report each year on projected workforce shortages and future staffing requirements for health, public health and social care sectors in the following five, ten and twenty years.

(2) The report must report projections of both headcount and full-time equivalent for the total health, public health and care workforce in England and for each region, covering all regulated professions and including those working for voluntary and private providers of health and social care as well as the NHS.

(3) The projections must be independently verified and based on projected health and care needs of the population for the following 5, 10 and 20 years, consistent with the Office for Budget Responsibility long-term fiscal projections.

(4) All relevant NHS bodies, arm’s-length bodies, expert bodies, trade unions and the Social Partnership forum must be consulted in the preparation of the report.

(5) The assumptions underpinning the projections must be published at the same time as the report and must meet the relevant standards set out in the National Statistics Authority’s Code of Practice for Statistics.

(6) The Secretary of State must update Parliament each year on the Government’s strategy to deliver and fund the long-term workforce projections.”

New clause 29—Duty on the Secretary of State to report on workforce planning and safe staffing—

“(1) At least every five years the Secretary of State must lay before Parliament a health and care workforce strategy for workforce planning and safe staffing supply.

(2) This strategy must include—

(a) actions to ensure the health and care workforce meets the numbers and skill-mix required to meet workforce requirements,

(b) equality impact assessments for planned action for both workforce and population,

(c) application of lessons learnt from formal reviews and commissions concerning safety incidents,

(d) measures to promote retention, recruitment, remuneration and supply of the workforce, and

(e) due regard for and the promotion of workplace health and safety, including provision of safety equipment and clear mechanisms for staff to raise concerns.”

Amendment 10, in clause 34, page 42, line 12, leave out from beginning to the end of line 17 and insert—

“(1) The Secretary of State must, at least once every two years, lay a report before Parliament describing the system in place for assessing and meeting the workforce needs of the health, social care and public health services in England.

(2) This report must include—

(a) an independently verified assessment of health, social care and public health workforce numbers, current at the time of publication, and the projected workforce supply for the following five, ten and 20 years; and

(b) an independently verified assessment of future health, social care and public health workforce numbers based on the projected health and care needs of the population for the following five, ten and 20 years, consistent with the Office for Budget Responsibility long-term fiscal projections.

(3) NHS England and Health Education England must assist in the preparation of a report under this section.

(4) The organisations listed in subsection (3) must consult health and care employers, providers, trade unions, Royal Colleges, universities and any other persons deemed necessary for the preparation of this report, taking full account of workforce intelligence, evidence and plans provided by local organisations and partners of integrated care boards.”

This amendment would require the Government to publish independently verified assessments every two years of current and future workforce numbers required to deliver care to the population in England, based on the economic projections made by the Office for Budget Responsibility, projected demographic changes, the prevalence of different health conditions and the likely impact of technology.

Amendment 40, in clause 108, page 96, line 9, leave out subsection (2) and insert—

“(2) In this Part ‘protected material’ means—

(a) all statements taken from persons by the HSSIB during a safety investigation or in the course of deciding whether an incident is going to be subject to an HSSIB investigation,

(b) records revealing the identity of persons who have given evidence in the context of the safety investigation,

(c) information that has been collected by the HSSIB which is of a particularly sensitive and personal nature, such as (but not limited to) copies taken by the HSSIB of health records, care records, clinical notes, or personnel records,

(d) material subsequently produced during the course of an HSSIB investigation such as (but not limited to) notes, drafts and opinions written by the investigators, or opinions expressed in the analysis of information obtained through the investigation,

(e) drafts of preliminary or final reports or interim reports, and

(f) information that would be subject to legally enforceable commercial privileges.”

This amendment would define more closely the materials covered by the “safe space” protection provided for by the Bill.

Amendment 41, page 96, line 32, leave out

“information, document, equipment or other item held by that individual”

and insert “protected material”.

This amendment is consequential on Amendment 40.

Amendment 43, in clause 109, page 96, line 43, leave out from “Part” to end of line 24 on page 97.

This amendment would remove the ability of the Secretary of State to make regulations authorising disclosure of protected material beyond that provided for in the Bill.

Amendment 74, page 101, line 1, leave out clause 115.

Government amendments 24 and 127.

Amendment 57, page 110, line 11, leave out clause 127.

This amendment seeks to ensure that a profession currently regulated cannot be removed from statutory regulation and that regulatory bodies cannot be abolished.

Government amendments 86 and 87.

Government new schedule 1—Virginity testing: consequential amendments.

Government amendment 88.

Amendment 42, in schedule 14, page 218, line 30, leave out paragraph 6.

This amendment would remove the provision allowing coroners to require the disclosure of protected material.

[Edward Argar]

This broad group of amendments concern improving patient safety and the quality of health and care services, both of which are a priority for this Government. For that reason, this Bill will put the Health Services Safety Investigations Body on a statutory footing. The HSSIB will be one of the first independent healthcare bodies of its kind, leading the way in investigating for the purpose of learning, not blaming. For the HSSIB to be able to perform this “no-blame” role, the integrity of safe space is paramount. I look forward to contributions from right hon. and hon. Members from both sides of the House, recognising the depth of expertise, particularly that residing in the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), on how best to make safe space work. As we discussed extensively in Committee, we recognise that ultimately this comes down to: what is the appropriate balance to be struck? Different views are likely to be aired again today.

Within this group, I will also address amendments brought forward by colleagues, including my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), on the health and social care workforce. Ensuring we have the workforce this country needs will, in the short-term, tackle the elective backlog. Crucially, in the long-term, as we build back better, it will help to reduce damaging health inequalities. For those reasons, I will later speak in more detail about this Government’s plans on the workforce, some of which of course are already in motion. I hope I can reassure the House that the provisions already made in this Bill, alongside the Government amendments I am about to discuss, do go sufficiently far to address these important issues.

I will begin by addressing new clauses 36 to 48, new schedule 1 and amendments 86 and 87, which comprise the package of Government amendments to prohibit virginity testing in the UK. I offer my deepest thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Mr Holden) for his tireless efforts in proposing these amendments originally and in supporting the Government in proposing our variations on them, which we believe achieve the right balance—I will turn to that in a moment—as we bring forward this ban.

I should also put on the record my gratitude to the Opposition Front-Bench team for their constructive engagement on this issue, which does not divide us on party political lines but is about doing the right thing. I am grateful to the shadow Ministers on the Opposition Front Bench: the hon. Members for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) and for Nottingham North (Alex Norris).

In July, the Government promised in our violence against women and girls strategy that virginity testing will not be tolerated in the UK and will be banned at the earliest opportunity, so I am delighted that we are introducing amendments that demonstrate the strength of our commitment to the removal of all forms of abuse against women and girls. Our amendments will create three offences: conducting a virginity test; offering virginity testing; and aiding or abetting another person to conduct a virginity test in the UK or on UK nationals overseas. Each offence will carry a maximum penalty of five years’ imprisonment and/or an unlimited fine. This sentencing reflects the long-term physical and psychological damage that this repressive practice can cause.

The offences begin to tackle the harmful misconceptions that surround a woman’s sexuality. This House’s commitment to legislate is a profoundly important step forward in helping to tackle the damaging myths concerning the so-called purity of women’s sexuality. In response to concerns that, once the offence is banned in the UK, vulnerable women and girls will be taken abroad and subjected to virginity testing there, the offences will carry extraterritorial jurisdiction.

The proposals have been discussed by Health Ministers throughout the UK, including in the devolved Administrations, and I am working with them to ensure that the whole of the UK together tackles this abhorrent practice. I put on record my gratitude to the devolved Administrations for the constructive manner in which they have engaged on the issue. I hope that the House will pass the amendments today and allow us to take another step forward in our shared endeavour and important work on safeguarding and improving the lives of women and girls throughout the United Kingdom.

Let me turn briefly to new clause 21, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham—I thank him again for doing so. I hope that what I have said will reassure him and the rest of the House that the package of Government amendments that I have just discussed go further to protect women and girls from this form of abuse and are the most effective vehicle by which we can achieve what we seek to do. Our package of amendments set out that the conducting, offering or aiding of a virginity test is simply indefensible. The amendments ensure that victims are protected on our shores and abroad and that the sentencing of those convicted reflects the detrimental physical and psychological impacts of the practice. I therefore hope that my hon. Friend will feel able not to press his new clause to a vote and instead to support our amendments. I am incredibly grateful to him—as, I am sure, is the House—for his campaigning vigour on this issue.

My hon. Friend also tabled new clause 22, which seeks to ban the practice of hymenoplasty. The Government remain concerned that hymenoplasty is also driven by a repressive approach to female sexuality and is closely related to virginity testing, which we have made clear today is not an acceptable practice in the United Kingdom or elsewhere. We announced in the violence against women and girls strategy that we would set up an independent expert panel to explore the complex clinical, legal and ethical aspects of the procedure in more detail. The panel, which includes key stakeholders with ethical and clinical expertise, has already met and will shortly make its recommendations to Ministers, before Christmas. It is crucial that, having asked the panel to contribute, we carefully consider its views before we make a firm decision to ban hymenoplasty. However, I assure the House that although we cannot accept the new clause today because we await the recommendations of the review panel, we will of course fully reassess our position as soon as the panel makes its recommendations.

If we are to ensure patient safety and quality of care, it is vital that we have the workforce in place to deliver it. That is a priority for the Government and I reassure the House that we are taking the necessary steps to secure the workforce of the health and social care sector. Members throughout the House would all agree that although investment in technology, in new hospitals and buildings, in therapeutics and in kit are all phenomenally important, the golden thread that makes that investment valuable is the workforce—the people who always go above and beyond, particularly in the past 18 months, to make that equipment more than just a shiny piece of kit but something that actually saves lives. They are absolutely the heart of what we are doing.

NHS Integrated Care System Boundaries

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Edward Argar

Tuesday 29th June 2021 Commons Chamber

[Edward Argar]

I would try to address that point briefly, but I think my hon. Friend would rather have the reassurance that I can give him. Perhaps I can pick up that point separately with him, because I do not want to run out of time.

Finally, and most importantly, I reassure my hon. Friend and other Members that no decisions have yet been made regarding the outcome of the ICS boundary review. As he would expect, the newly appointed Secretary of State will want to consider carefully the background to this issue, the options before him and, indeed, the views of right hon. and hon. Members before any decision is made. I have discussed this matter with the new Secretary of State and wish to extend his clear commitment to meet my hon. Friend, my right hon. Friend the Member for Maidenhead and other Members before he makes any decision and decides how to proceed in this matter.

My hon. Friend knows me well, and my preference is generally for evolution, not revolution. I hope that, him knowing me well and in the light of what I have said today, he will recognise the sincerity of what I say. I also hope it is helpful that I have put on record, once again, that no decisions have been made and that Members will be consulted and have the opportunity to speak to the Secretary of State. I hope that commitment reassures my hon. Friend, at least in the short term, that nothing will happen without him and other Members having their say clearly on the record.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I normally thank the Minister politely at this point in the day, but I really do thank the Minister for what he has just said on this particular occasion.

Covid Contracts: Judicial Review

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Edward Argar

Wednesday 24th February 2021 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. That was a very long speech. I do not want the hon. Gentleman to create a precedent.

[Edward Argar]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his initial analogy. He made a couple of points there. I believe—this is from memory, so forgive me if I am slightly out, and I will correct the record if I am—that around 90% of those bids that came through the high-priority lane were rejected. They were carefully assessed by civil servants against the eight stages of the procurement process set up to ensure that due diligence was followed.

The hon. Gentleman raised a very specific point, which I want to address, because he talked in his question not just about NHS trusts, but quite rightly about those working on the frontline in social care settings and the PPE they needed. He quotes accurately, if my recollection is correct, from the NAO report. One of the factors here was that traditionally, social care settings are private businesses in most cases and procured their PPE directly in private contracts with their suppliers. That is one of the reasons why, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, during the early phase of the pandemic we moved from supplying 226 trusts with PPE to making that service available to 58,000 or so settings to get PPE to social care. That was a reflection of the Government’s commitment and work to make sure that we could use centralised procurement and centralised supply to help support the social care sector get what it needed.

--- Later in debate ---

[Edward Argar]

I thank my hon. Friend. He is absolutely right. Getting PPE to the frontline, procuring what we needed and getting it delivered was the absolute priority. As I have expressed throughout my remarks, I recognise that transparency is hugely important, and we will supply the court with the further information it needs. As the judge said, we are now virtually in complete compliance, and we will continue to work hard to ensure we comply with the requirements under regulation 50 and the other requirements of the Public Contracts Regulations 2015.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I will now briefly suspend for a few minutes in order that arrangements can be made for the next item of business.

Exiting the European Union (Agriculture)

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Edward Argar

Tuesday 10th November 2020 Commons Chamber

[Edward Argar]

I will take that as a clear invitation. Sam Beggs who was a fantastic member of staff to both the hon. Gentleman and I always sang the praises of Strangford. I need no more than the hon. Gentleman’s kind invitation to take him up on it when travel is more normal.

Question put and agreed to.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

In order to allow the safe exit of hon. Members participating in this item of business and the safe arrival of those participating in the next, I will suspend the House for three minutes.

Public Health

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Edward Argar

Monday 4th May 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Health (Edward Argar)]

I beg to move,

That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 350), dated 26 March 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 26 March, be approved.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

With this we shall take the following motion:

That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 447), dated 21 April 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 22 April, be approved.

The Minister is asked to speak for no more than 12 minutes.

[Edward Argar]

These sets of regulations were made by the Secretary of State on 26 March and 21 April respectively. Following the return of the House after the Easter recess, they are rightly being brought before the House today for the scrutiny and debate that they require. They are exceptional measures, brought forward to reflect exceptional challenges and times, but although it is right that these regulations—necessary to meet the public health needs of the coronavirus pandemic—are brought forward, it is also right that we ensure that this House is able to play its proper role, and that due process and the rule of law are maintained. With that in mind, I thank the shadow Minister and the Opposition parties for facilitating this debate taking place today.

The country has been, and still is, engaged in a national effort to beat coronavirus covid-19. Delivering a strategy designed to ensure that our NHS is protected, with capacity at all times exceeding the demand for intensive care beds for coronavirus patients, flattening the peak, and driving down the rate of transmission of disease and the number of infections, alongside the work to significantly expand NHS capacity, have all helped to protect our NHS and to save lives. Sadly, although this has been working, there have been many who have died from this disease—each and every one of them a tragedy, and each and every one a real person. Our thoughts are with all their friends and families at this time. I also put on record all of our continued thanks and appreciation to NHS and care workers, and to key workers around the country, for the phenomenal work that they are doing caring for people and keeping the United Kingdom going.

The regulations we debate today have played a crucial role in the success we are seeing in reducing infection transmission levels. They impose significant demands upon individuals and society as a whole, with impacts on business, the economy and daily life, and I do understand the sacrifices people are making at this time, their frustrations, and, indeed, their anxieties. But these regulations are necessary, because the single most important step we can all take to beating this disease is to stay at home in order to reduce the spread and to protect ourselves and others.

That is why, in these regulations, the Government introduce three main social distancing measures: requiring people to stay at home as far as possible, with only very limited exceptions; closing certain businesses and venues; and stopping gatherings of more than two people in public. These regulations are similar to those introduced by other countries. We have worked closely with the devolved Administrations, to whom I should also pay tribute, in developing and reviewing these measures.

The main statutory instrument, No. 350, requires enforcement of the closure of some businesses and restrictions on others from 12 pm on 26 March 2020. As set out in the notes, the regulations require the closure of drinking establishments, including bars, pubs and nightclubs, and food and drink venues with consumption on-site, excluding hospitals, schools, care homes, homeless services and prison canteens, as well as other exemptions. Regulation 4(4) requires the closure of entertainment venues including cinemas, theatres, concert halls, bingo halls, museums, galleries, spas, hairdressing and massage parlours, casinos, funfairs, libraries, community centres, and non-food outdoor markets. Regulation 5(1) requires businesses offering goods for sale or for hire, or providing library services, to cease to do so except in response to orders received online, by telephone or by mail order. Types of businesses specified in part 3 of schedule 2 are exempt from these restrictions. Regulation 5(2) excludes hot and cold food collection and delivery from the closure restrictions. Regulations 5(3) and 5(4) require hotels and similar establishments to remain open for permanent residence only to persons in a hotel because they are moving home, attending a funeral, or unable to return home.

The second set of regulations, No. 447, makes a small number of consequential amendments to improve the operational implementation of the main regulations.

These regulations are made under section 45C of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, with Her Majesty’s Government clear that the powers under that Act are sufficient to introduce them.

Given the impact that these regulations have on individuals and businesses, notwithstanding the huge support package announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, I know that a number of issues relating to these regulations have been raised in recent days by members of the public and, indeed, by hon. Members, and I will touch on those now. However, I will endeavour to respond more fully to specific points raised by Members when I wind up the debate.

First, there is the question of enforcement. The Joint Committee on Human Rights and others have expressed concerns about variations in enforcement and in the approach adopted to it by different police forces. As hon. Members will be aware, guidance was issued to police forces, and this has continued to be updated and clarified. It is important that the police operate within the law, which is the law as it is set out in these regulations, and that guidance is treated as just that—clarifying guidance.

The British people have been amazing in their collective response to the restrictions, and compliance has been very high. However, a very small minority have not always complied. The police have been doing their very challenging job at this time with dedication and, by and large, pragmatism. The approach of “engage, explain, encourage, and only then enforce where it is absolutely necessary” is the right one. The small number of examples, while important, of what can seem like over-enthusiastic enforcement should not detract from the fantastic work being done by the police across the country.

The final aspect of the regulations that I draw attention to is the requirement that they be reviewed every 21 days, to ensure that they remain necessary and appropriate. The first review took place on 16 April, with the First Secretary of State confirming that they would remain in place. The next review is due on 7 May. I am aware of the desire of Members and across the country for more detail on the UK’s progress and future steps, which I understand. The review on 7 May will consider the necessity of the regulations against the public health aim, including the five considerations set out by my right hon. Friend the First Secretary of State: first, that the NHS can provide critical care across the UK; secondly, that there is a sustained and consistent fall in the daily death rate; thirdly, that infection rates decrease to an acceptable level; fourthly, that supplies of personal protective equipment and testing meet future demand; and fifthly, that evidence is clear that any changes will not risk a second peak of the virus.

The Prime Minister has set out that further announcements on this will be made soon. As he said on Thursday last week, the Government will set out a comprehensive plan this week, which will explain how we will get our economy moving while continuing to suppress the disease. It will set out how we will seek to get life back to normal for as many people as we can, as quickly, equitably and fairly as we can, while continuing to protect the NHS. And it will, of course, as throughout, continue to be guided by the best scientific and medical advice. I hope the House will understand that I do not intend to pre-empt what the Prime Minister might say later this week on the basis of that advice.

It is right that we made these regulations as and when we did to help tackle the coronavirus/covid-19 pandemic. Her Majesty’s Government consider these regulations to be proportionate and appropriate in the face of this pandemic, but it is absolutely right that this House properly scrutinises and debates them and their impact upon our country, and I look forward to hearing Members’ contributions. I commend these regulations to the House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Before I call the spokesman for the Opposition, I should draw to the attention of Members in the Chamber and who are going to participate by electronic means that there will be a time limit of five minutes on Back-Bench contributions. I have to adhere strictly to that timetable in order to make these proceedings work in this unusual way, so please do not look for leniency. I also ask Members who are participating from home to have some way of checking whether they have spoken for five minutes. I now call Justin Madders, who I ask to speak for no more than eight minutes.

--- Later in debate ---

[Edward Argar]

Today we have had in this Chamber a very important debate on regulations that, while absolutely necessary to help beat covid-19, are having a profound effect on people’s lives and businesses. Despite that necessity, it is equally necessary that we uphold the hard-won rights we have in this country: the rule of law and the right and duty of this House to scrutinise and question the Government—something that Members have done with determination and, indeed, enthusiasm today.

In the course of the debate Members have raised a number of important points, to which I will endeavour to respond as fully as I can in the time allowed to me. First, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) raised a number of key points. He talked about the need for clarity around an exit strategy and how it develops and the importance of taking the British people into our confidence, because in this country we govern and police by consent, and therefore it is important that it is a shared endeavour, where we take the British people with us.

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the Prime Minister said last Thursday that the Government will set out a comprehensive plan this week, which will explain how we will get our economy moving while continuing to suppress the disease, seeking to get life back to normal for as many people as we can as quickly and, importantly—this goes to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Sir Graham Brady)—as fairly across our society as we can, while continuing to protect the NHS.

The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston was right: that needs to involve a conversation and a dialogue. As he alluded to, that dialogue on where things may go in the future has already begun, which is a positive step forward. I am grateful for his typically reasonable and measured tone, and I want to put on record once again my gratitude to him and to the shadow Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth), my constituency neighbour. He, too, has adopted a constructive and reasonable tone throughout this, and I am grateful to them and Members across the House for the tone they have adopted.

I turn to other points that have been raised. If I miss anything, the shadow Minister is welcome to come back to me privately, and I am happy to write to him to fill in any gaps in my answers. My hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West mentioned the importance of scrutiny, as did many Members, and that is absolutely right. It is important that we remember that these regulations are born out of necessity, but they are exceptional and should only be kept as long as the exceptional circumstances necessitate. He, too, mentioned the importance of a route map and giving the UK a route out of the current restrictions as quickly as we can when we can do so safely; he is right. Sadly, the necessity of the time means that we are not there yet, but it is important that that dialogue with the British people continues and is open, including in this House.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale and my hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Selaine Saxby) for the tone of their remarks and their support for the necessity of what we are doing. They highlighted the impact—the hon. Gentleman in respect of the south lakes area and my hon. Friend in respect of rural north Devon—of these necessary regulations on the hospitality and tourism industries that play such a huge part in their local communities and economy. That is why it is absolutely right that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer is looking carefully at the matter and has put together a package designed to do everything that he can to support industry and businesses in this country. Nevertheless, I hear what they say, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor will have heard it as well.

My hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Sir Charles Walker) was the Chair of the first Select Committee that I served on after I became a Member of this House in 2015, and back then he emphasised to me that the key Committee to get on was the Procedure Committee, because by learning how this place works a person will not go too badly wrong. I do not know whether it has yet been long enough for me to have proven or disproven that, but he is right, and he is a doughty champion of the rights of this House and the importance of scrutiny and due process. He is also right to emphasise that just as we must ensure that we protect the NHS and protect people’s health, we must also recognise the need to support and protect our economy, because it is indeed a vibrant economy that pays for the NHS that we all rely on. My hon. Friend highlighted the need for openness, and his contribution was typically decent and insightful.

The hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) was right to emphasise the importance of the four nations working together and taking a co-ordinated approach. I again re-emphasise my gratitude and the Government’s gratitude to the devolved Administrations for the spirit of genuine partnership in which we have all been working in recent weeks. The hon. Gentleman talked about whether the fixed-penalty notice amount was an adequate deterrent; it is arguable that the far more effective penalty is, rather than the penalty imposed, the sense of common national endeavour in this country and everyone wishing to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do.

My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) is not only an hon. Friend but a friend, and a good and decent man. He has long been a champion, inside and outside the House, of due process, the rule of law and the need, despite the safeguards in this country, always to be vigilant and protect the hard-won freedoms that we enjoy. Such voices as his are absolutely vital to the health of a vibrant democracy such as ours. He was right to emphasise the difference between guidance and law. As I said in my opening remarks, what is in the regulations is the law; guidance may be helpful but it is not the law. My hon. Friend drew on the highway code to make a point about the difference between “must” and “should” in the way we communicate these things. That is a good and valid point that my hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Robert Courts), who is not able to be present today, has made to me in the past.

My hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe also asked whether the regulations might or might not be ultra vires. I will say only a few more words on the issue, because I am conscious that, if the press reports are to be believed, there is a possibility that some may be considering legal cases on this issue and I would not wish to stray into that territory, save to reiterate what I said in my opening remarks: the Government believe that section 45C of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984 does give sufficient authority to Ministers and to the Government to implement the regulations.

The hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Layla Moran) was right to highlight the challenge posed in some businesses—she highlighted the experience of call-centre staff—and the need for businesses to do everything in their power, if people are working in a job that they cannot do from home, to ensure that their workers are supported and protected and that appropriate social-distancing measures are in place to protect workers who are fulfilling important roles to help everyone else in our society.

My hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil (Mr Fysh) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (John Redwood) both highlighted the importance of reassuring the British public and this House about the need for openness and for scrutiny. They highlighted the fact that we must always treat liberty as a precious thing, protect it, and ensure that we do not see it whittled away: I reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Yeovil that there is no intention to do any such thing.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham also touched on the need to be open about the science. He spoke with a degree of erudition and knowledge that I will not seek to emulate, but he is right to say that we must interrogate the science carefully when making the decisions on where to go in future with these regulations.

Turning to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), we are, as ever, very grateful for his support and for his contribution to this debate. He is always a strong voice for his constituents. Among a number of points that he made, he was quite right to highlight the importance of doing what we can to ensure that people’s mental health is supported and protected at what is a very difficult time for many, many people. He also alluded to human rights implications. I reassure him that the Government are clear that these measures are fully compliant with the Human Rights Act 1998.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Philip Dunne) and a number of other colleagues, including my hon. Friend the Member for Witney, my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) and my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Aaron Bell), made the point, as have other hon. Members, that these regulations, while necessary, should be in force only for as long as they are absolutely necessary, highlighting not only the health impact but the broader impacts on society and on the economy. I reassure them that we are absolutely clear about that. These measures are a necessity at the moment, but the Government have always been clear that they will be retained only for so long as they are a necessity to tackle this disease.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow was right about the importance of testing, and also right to highlight the work of the Secretary of State in this respect. The Secretary of State has always been very clear in saying that it is a team effort that has got us to reaching the target, last week, of 100,000 tests per day. I would say, however, that in a team, leadership is important. He has shown that leadership in this very important matter, and I pay tribute to him for that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Arundel and South Downs (Andrew Griffith) was absolutely right to highlight the importance of consent. Consent comes from us following due process and adhering to the rule of law through this Chamber—through this House. We will always bear that very much in mind. The shadow Minister and others made the point very clearly that they would expect this House to be very much involved, as swiftly as possible, in any further decisions or changes. I know that will have been heard by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in Downing Street.

I conclude with my thanks—and indeed, I suspect, all of our thanks—to NHS and care staff and key workers around this country, all of whom are doing so much for all of us. These are exceptional measures that we should only maintain for as long as necessary, but at the moment, regrettably, they do remain necessary. Therefore, I also thank the British people for their incredible spirit and support for these measures. The fight against covid-19 is a tough one that has brought forth a national effort in this country. I am convinced that we will beat it, for when this great country comes together, it is unbeatable. I commend these regulations to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 350), dated 26 March 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 26 March, be approved.

Public Health

Resolved,

That the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2020 (S.I., 2020, No. 447), dated 21 April 2020, a copy of which was laid before this House on 22 April, be approved.—(Edward Argar.)

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

We have concluded this session a few minutes earlier than expected—not through bad arithmetical calculation, I would like the House to know, but because a few people who had indicated that they wished to speak and had been on the list to speak decided at the last minute not to. I therefore suspend the House for rather more than 30 minutes, until 7.30 pm.

NHS Funding Bill

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Edward Argar

Legislative Grand Committee & 3rd reading: House of Commons & Legislative Grand Committee: House of Commons & Programme motion: House of Commons & 3rd reading & Programme motion
Tuesday 4th February 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right in regard to the procedure. If we finish this part of the procedure before 5.29 pm, there will be a very short time for the next part of the procedure. If this part of the consideration of the Bill goes to 5.29 pm, there will indeed be no time for the Report and consideration stage. That is correct, as is normal in any Bill, but I am grateful to him for pointing it out so clearly.

[Edward Argar]

In the 15 or so minutes remaining to me, I will endeavour to address all the points that have been raised. First, I thank Members on both sides of the House for their contributions and for the amendments that have been tabled. I particularly thank the shadow Minister for his typically reasonable tone in making his case forcefully. This Committee debate has been a wide-ranging and important one.

I will turn in detail to the amendments shortly, but, in the interests of time, I will swiftly address the requests for meetings or visits. The hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) was right when he said that he saw me nodding. I will be very happy to meet him, my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton South (Matt Vickers) and the chief executive of his hospital trust to discuss the issues that he raised. I will also be very happy to meet the hon. Member for Harrow West (Gareth Thomas) separately to discuss the issues that he raised.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The hon. Gentleman’s analysis is not wrong. The knife has fallen. The House voted some days ago to provide three hours, or four hours in total, for consideration of this Bill, and it is indeed the case that because those four hours have passed, there is no time for debate on consideration and Report—that is absolutely correct. There is also no time for debate on Third Reading.

As to whether the Government did not provide sufficient time, or Members of this House took up all the time in the early part of the proceedings, that is not a matter for me to judge; I have merely facilitated it. Members might have decided not to speak for very long at the beginning. If so, the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues would have had the opportunity to discuss the matters that they had tabled. I thank him for his further points.

Does the Minister intend to move a consent motion in the Legislative Grand Committee?

[Edward Argar]

indicated assent.

The House forthwith resolved itself into the Legislative Grand Committee (England) (Standing Order No. 83M(3)).

[Dame Eleanor Laing in the Chair]