Points of Order

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Desmond Swayne

Wednesday 17th July 2019 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. You were not in the Chair at the time, but the word that the Minister heard was “indefinite”. My recollection is that the word that I used was “indeterminate”. Thank you for indulging me so that I could get that on the record.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his brief and precise point of order. He has corrected the record. There is a distinction between the two words, and I am sure that his point will have been taken into consideration.

Leaving the EU: Tobacco Products and Public Health

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Desmond Swayne

Monday 7th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We are about to debate a matter of huge constitutional significance. Hitherto, the sole criterion for voting in Committees of this House has been election. If this measure passes, we will change that to allow people who have not been elected to vote in Committees of this House. That would be a huge change, which we are about to rush through in 40 minutes, without proper scrutiny. The Government have already withdrawn one motion from today’s proceedings. Is there any way that, through your offices, you can ask the Government whether they would be prepared to withdraw this motion so that we can debate it fully and properly at an appropriate time?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I fully understand and have some sympathy with the point the right hon. Gentleman makes. It is indeed the case that we have a very short amount of time for this important debate. Of course, as he knows, I have no power from the Chair to do anything about the timetabling of matters in the Chamber. As I look at the Leader of the House, I see that she has a determination to get on with this debate now. I can well understand that. It is in the power of the Government to change the business, but as the right hon. Gentleman knows, the House is very busy. All I would say is that I hope people will speak succinctly and briefly, and that it is unfortunate that the earlier business took so long, with so many people saying the same thing over and over again but insisting on having their voices heard, which has curtailed the debate on this very important piece of business.

Committee on Standards: Cox Report

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Desmond Swayne

Monday 7th January 2019 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

The Question is as on the Order Paper—[Interruption.]

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

I was not aware that this was a time-limited debate.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I beg your pardon? Is this a point of order?

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. My understanding was that the debate proceeds until there is a closure motion.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

No, I have taken the decision that, as there was only 10 seconds before 10 pm, I would, as usual, put the Question. [Interruption.] I will take the right hon. Gentleman’s point of order after I have put the Question. The Question is as on the Order Paper. As many as of that opinion say aye.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Division. Clear the Lobby.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

There do not appear to be any tellers, Madam Deputy Speaker, but there is a point of order.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. The Question is as on the Order Paper. As many as of that opinion say aye.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Of the contrary, no. The ayes have it.

Question put and agreed to.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that if there is no order of the House that a debate must end at a particular time, and if Members are standing at the moment of interruption, then that debate should continue at another time, when time becomes available, and not be put to a vote when Members are still standing, waiting to speak in the debate.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The right hon. Gentleman is, of course, absolutely right in his description—[Interruption.] Order! Order! Close the doors!

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, of course, in his description of the way in which matters are dealt with at the point of interruption. I took the decision this evening that, as there were 10 seconds left before 10 pm, that was the point at which I should put the Question. The hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green), who was on her feet at 9.59 and 51 seconds—I was watching very carefully—had the courtesy to sit down just before 10 o’clock in order that I might put the Question. I took the decision that the Question ought to be put to the House, as it was the moment for the Question to be put. If the right hon. Gentleman is saying that it was not right for the hon. Lady to sit down with nine seconds to spare, I think he is really splitting hairs. I understand very well the point that he is making, but I took the decision that nine or 10 seconds meant that we were at the point of interruption and that no one else could have made a meaningful speech in those nine seconds. Of course, I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman’s point, which was also made by the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Mr Rees-Mogg) in a point of order earlier in the evening, that it is possible for a Member to speak through the point of interruption, and that then there could be no vote and no decision.

My decision and my ruling from the Chair this evening has been that my reading of this Chamber was that the vast majority of Members in this Chamber wanted to have a decision on this matter this evening. I agreed with the right hon. Gentleman earlier that it is a great pity that today we had urgent questions lasting for some two hours and eight minutes that were somewhat repetitive, and that we then had statements lasting for three hours and two minutes that were also rather repetitive. As I said to the right hon. Gentleman in answer to his point of order earlier this evening, these matters are in the hands of Members. If Members insist on having their voice heard again and again, making the same point on the same matter, we will be in a position whereby an important debate such as the one that has just concluded has not had nearly enough time, but these matters are in the hands of Members.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I will of course allow the right hon. Gentleman to make a further point of order if he so wishes.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

It is verging on impertinence, Madam Deputy Speaker, but could you share with us the rationale for your decision, rather than allowing the debate to proceed, which it would otherwise have done had you not terminated it at the moment of interruption? We could then have explored all those constitutional issues that were raised ever so briefly during the short time that we had.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I will answer the right hon. Gentleman’s further point of order by saying this: it has become the practice in this House that everybody who stands up to speak thinks that they have an automatic right to do so in that debate at the point when they stand up to speak. But as the right hon. Gentleman will recall, when he and I were new young Members of this House—some decades ago—it was perfectly normal for us to sit there, hour after hour, and not be called. It was perfectly normal for 100 people to rise at the beginning of an urgent question or a statement, but for only 30 to be called. It was perfectly normal for people to write to the Speaker and say that they would like to speak in a particular debate, but for only half of them to get to do so. I am terribly sorry that the right hon. Gentleman has been disappointed this evening because, of course, his seniority means that it is normal that he is called in a debate, near the beginning of the debate, but many Members really ought to get used to the fact that it is not an automatic right to speak for as long as they wish, whenever they wish, because there are 650 Members of this place and it is important to balance the rights of one as against the rights of all the others.

Business of the House

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Desmond Swayne

Thursday 19th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I appreciate the hon. Lady’s question. Now that the matter has been raised, many people will want clarity as soon as possible. I will try to ensure that an answer is brought by tomorrow, and I am sure that Mr Speaker will also require that, in so far as he is able to do so.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It would be a matter of great convenience to some of us to have all email accounts closed down.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

The right hon. Gentleman may say that; I could not possibly comment.

Point of Order

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Desmond Swayne

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Of course, by bringing this forward, we will have the opportunity to tee up Ministers on issues before they arise at the summit—and, indeed, we will not be denied the opportunity to question Ministers on the outcome of the summit, because there will be further Defence questions.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his further point of order. I can see that we have two sides of the same story, not surprisingly—that is what this Chamber is for. I am concerned by the point of order put forward by the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith), but the arrangement of questions is of course a matter for the Government, not for the Chair. Mr Speaker has no direct input or influence in how these matters are done. I understand that if changes are made to the order of questions, that is usually discussed through the usual channels. If that has not happened on this occasion, it is regrettable.

I understand, though, that the revised rota was actually published by the Table Office on 13 June and that the new dates for Defence and Home Office orals have been visible in the “Future Business” section of the Order Paper since that date. I appreciate, of course, that it is easy to overlook these matters. I understand that the Table Office will explore the best way to highlight changes to the rota in future. However, I am sure that the House has heard both the points made by the hon. Lady and by the right hon. Gentleman—

Points of Order

Debate between Baroness Laing of Elderslie and Desmond Swayne

1st reading: House of Commons
Thursday 13th July 2017 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I call Sir Desmond Swayne.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Do Ministers have any responsibility for the website of the House? [Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. [Interruption.] Order. The House is lively this morning. Let us have a little order. I have already said that those who are responsible are carrying out an investigation, and in due course I am quite certain we will be able to report to the Chamber just what went wrong and make sure it does not happen again.