Care Bill [Lords]

Baroness Laing of Elderslie Excerpts

Monday 10th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Ward]

Will the hon. Lady give way?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Before the shadow Minister considers taking further interventions, she may not have realised that although the House appreciates that she is making some important points on a complex matter, she has spoken for some 24 minutes. She will not be aware, but I am, that a very large number of colleagues wish to speak in this debate and there is a limited time, so she might consider bringing her remarks to a close.

[Liz Kendall]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have two more paragraphs. I agreed that I would speak for 25 minutes, so at 24 minutes I am almost in.

New clause 9 would help secure that shift in approach. I ask hon. Members to consider the new clause seriously because we need to introduce the up-front prevention, help and support, which requires a change in the way we look at the costs and benefits in the system.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Before I call anyone from the Back Benches, let me say that the shadow Minister has been most courteous in bringing her remarks to a conclusion when I indicated that that might be a good idea. It would also be a good idea, if Members wish to be courteous to their colleagues, if they would limit their remarks to some five minutes. That way everyone will get to speak. If anybody speaks for more than 10 minutes, I will remind them of the fact.

[Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

I am not quite sure who to be bad-tempered with. As the House knows, I am not characteristically bad-tempered, but I think my bad temper should probably be directed at the usual channels, given that the timetable motion went through on the nod. We have to deal with 21 new clauses and 20 amendments on an important Bill in two hours, which by my calculation allows three minutes per clause or amendment. The hon. Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) spoke perfectly reasonably, given the number of amendments that have been tabled, but it is impossible to do justice to all this in two hours. The usual channels should bear in mind that some of us feel rather bad-tempered about the time provision. These things, as we all know, are agreed between the usual channels; it is not one side or the other that is responsible.

I wish to speak briefly about new clause 3. The Bill does fantastic things for carers, and I think it would be a real tragedy if, once the Bill completes its passage, carers or their advocates felt that it was a missed opportunity. I shall not repeat what my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) said. The Minister will doubtless say that clause 6 and the duty to co-operate deal with this point. Clearly, the duty to co-operate is very important for local authorities and the NHS. In the past, GPs may not have sought to identify carers as well as they could because they did not think there was much they could do for them. Now they will be able to ensure that there is a carer’s assessment. If the Minister intends to resist new clause 3, could he seek to ensure that we have statutory guidance for the NHS on the services that it should provide for carers?

I fully understand that for those aged over 75 the aim will be to have named clinicians, and those clinicians should, as part of their duty, ensure that carers are identified, but of course many carers, including young carers, are under the age of 75. It would be a real pity if the Bill missed this opportunity on carers. If we could have some statutory guidance on what the Minister, the Department and all of us expect the NHS to do to identify carers, we can then have a quick rendition of the “Hallelujah Chorus” and I will not be so grumpy.

--- Later in debate ---

[Norman Lamb]

I am sorry; I must ensure that I get through all the amendments.

On new clause 13, I am clear that the current lack of good information on deferred payment agreements is not acceptable, given the importance of the scheme. That is why we are working with national partners in local government and the National Association of Financial Assessment Officers to develop a range of questions that will improve and expand the data we already have. The new clause is therefore unnecessary as we already have plans under way to achieve a similar goal.

On new clause 4 on local authorities making “reasonable charges”, the Government’s proposal to set a clear amount beyond which a person’s income cannot be reduced is much clearer and provides stronger protection. I have written to my right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam and other Committee members on this subject, and I would be happy to share the letter with other Members. I have nothing to add to that analysis and do not agree that the new clause is required.

On amendment 21 and new clause 15, the Bill makes it clear that local authorities must work to maintain a sustainable market that delivers a wide variety of high quality services for people who need care and support in the local area. Local authorities’ own commissioning is an important part of this process. Additionally, local authorities will have to have regard to the well-being of individuals when commissioning services. Therefore, any local authority that commissions inappropriately short care visits or does not consider the actual cost of care when setting fee levels is highly unlikely to be fulfilling their duties. These matters will be set out fully in statutory guidance. It would not be appropriate to have a nationally set formula that would lead to standard rates or “tariff prices” for care and support, as this is best left to local negotiations in the open market.

On new clause 24, local authorities are already under a duty to work with their local clinical commissioning groups and others through the health and wellbeing boards to undertake joint strategic needs assessments and to develop joint health and well-being strategies. Statutory guidance published in March 2013 makes it clear that these must be published and have specific regard to

“what health and social care information the community needs, including how they access it and what support they may need to understand it”.

Awareness-raising will be an important part of the Bill’s implementation. The Department will co-ordinate involvement of wider interests, including local authorities and the private and voluntary sectors, to raise the public’s awareness of the new arrangements, specifically on the need for people to plan for care costs. We will add to what is already available to monitor the effectiveness of information and advice, public accessibility and public awareness.

On new clauses 22 and 23 about financial advice, the Financial Conduct Authority already has a responsibility to keep under review the financial advice market as regards how it is serving customers, and qualifications for advisers, and this includes those looking to fund long-term care costs. These requirements are published in FCA rules. Such an addition to the Bill would therefore be unnecessary.

I understand the intention behind new clauses 17, 18 and 32—it is to ensure fair payment for care sector workers. In response to the Cavendish review, statutory guidance for the Bill will include guidance to local authorities on commissioning services and arranging contracts that will explicitly require them to have regard to ensuring that provider organisations adhere to minimum wage legislation, including, crucially, the payment of travel time between social care visits. We are also working closely with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to ensure that the national minimum wage guidance is appropriate to the care sector. We have amended the Bill to enable specified bodies to provide training standards for groups of workers, initially focusing on health care assistants and social care support workers. This will form the core of the new care certificate.

New clause 31 is outside the remit of Health Education England, which has a delegated duty under the National Health Service Act 2006. The duty relates to education and training in relation to persons working, or considering working, in connection with the provision of services as part of the health service in England. The duty does not extend to regulated social care, which is taken to mean social care delivered by providers registered with the Care Quality Commission.

On new clause 5, given the inherent complexity presented by the different legislative frameworks operating in the different territories of the United Kingdom, we will look to develop principles on cross-border continuity of care that achieve the same practical effect as further legislation. I absolutely agree with the hon. Member for Edinburgh East (Sheila Gilmore) about the importance of this issue. We have started discussions with colleagues in the devolved Administrations and we will aim to publish the principles by November. I hope that that helps her.

On new clauses 3 and 19 about NHS work to identify and promote the health of carers, I can confirm that the guidance will absolutely reinforce the importance of co-operation between the NHS and local authorities on local authorities’ duty to identify carers. NHS England is developing its own action plan for identifying and supporting carers. In addition, our vision for out-of-hours hospital care, which will be published in April, will build on changes to the GP contract for 2014-15. All patients aged 75 and over will have a named accountable GP with responsibility for their care, and we will consider how we can extend this approach to all people with long-term conditions. The plan will emphasise the importance of GPs identifying carers and supporting them in their caring role by directing them to information, advice and support.

On new clauses 20 and 21, a legislative approach that compels schools, universities and colleges to identify young carers and student carers would not be in keeping with the Government’s drive to reduce burdens. The Department for Education has already been doing a lot in this regard, and it is now working with the National Governors Association in raising awareness in schools. The Department of Health has invested in many initiatives to help to identify and support young carers. We have trained over 150 school nurses as young carers’ champions. Along with other Departments, we will also explore the factors that are challenging in young adult carers’ transition from school to college or university. Along with ministerial colleagues, I will shortly write to Universities UK and the Association of Colleges to seek their engagement in this work.

Amendment 20, tabled by the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), is not required because the scope of the new powers in clause 12 already allows for the collection of such information if we choose to require it.

On amendments 31 to 33, we have carefully considered the issue of time frames in the care planning process, including reviews. On balance, we feel that a flexible approach is best. It is important for local authorities to retain the ability to be proportionate to the needs to be met. For some people—[Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The Minister must be heard. Hon. Members are being rude in speaking.

[Norman Lamb]

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.

For some people, the care planning process may be relatively simple, but for people with complex needs it is important that the plan is carefully produced and agreed with the person in order to meet their care and support needs effectively and appropriately.