Cammell Laird Workers Imprisoned in 1984

Debate between Edward Argar and Dawn Butler

Tuesday 7th February 2023 Westminster Hall

[Edward Argar]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for suggesting a potential third way. Again, that would not fall within the powers of the Ministry of Justice. I suspect it is the sort of thing that may fall under the remit of the Cabinet Office—that is one of the four jobs I held in brief succession last summer, so I still remember some of that.

I hope I can give the hon. Member for Harrow West a constructive response.

[Dawn Butler]

I just want some clarification. Is the Minister saying categorically that there are no documents in any Department relating to Cammell Laird that are not in the public domain?

[Edward Argar]

I repeat to the hon. Lady what I said—I will be quick, because I want to give the hon. Member for Harrow West time to wind up—which is that I understand that my Department has previously conducted extensive searches of our records within the court and criminal system, and nothing was found. I also stated that other Departments—the Cabinet Office, the Home Office and BEIS, as was—have likewise confirmed that they do not hold any. I limit my remarks to that and to repeating what I said, not because I necessarily disagree but because I want to confine myself to what I know I can say in this Chamber with knowledge. I do not want to risk misleading the House in any way.

The hon. Member for Harrow West asked about options. This is a legally complex area, and the answer that was previously given suggested the CCRC. I understand that there is no bespoke redress scheme for civil claims arising from committals for contempt of court. Claims for compensation may be explored through the normal civil court process. There are various courses of action. I know that the 37 did not appeal to the House of Lords, but I believe that, were there permission, it would be possible for them to consider an appeal to the Supreme Court. I am reticent to suggest that those may be the solutions. In the spirit of a constructive response, I say to the hon. Gentleman that if he writes to me, I will ask my officials to look into those legal routes in greater detail to try to get a bit of clarity, especially given the written parliamentary answer that he referred to. I hope that might slightly help to move things forward.

I want to give the hon. Gentleman some time to wind up. In summary, although I am extremely sympathetic to the case and to the individuals and communities affected, industrial relations and how they have historically been dealt with are not a matter for the Ministry of Justice. It would therefore be inappropriate for me to comment on the potential merits of an inquiry in this instance. As I say, if he writes to me, I hope I might be able to be constructive in responding.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Edward Argar and Dawn Butler

Report stage
Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Edward Argar]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who I think covered both bases there very eloquently. He makes an important point on this issue. The change will make a real difference to people’s lives, so I commend him for his work.

New clause 1 was tabled by my right hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) and would give the Secretary of State the power to introduce a licensing regime for aesthetic non-surgical cosmetic procedures, making it an offence for someone to practise without a licence. I thank her for bringing this to the House today. In that context, I also pay tribute to the right hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones); my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price), who has taken a very close interest in the issue; and of course my hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Laura Trott) not only for taking a close interest in the issue, but for her success, with her private Member’s Bill, in moving the dial further forward on the issue more broadly.

As I said in Committee, I entirely understand the intention behind the amendment and that a strong case has been made for further regulation in this area. I and the Department are keen to work with stakeholders, including Members of this House on both sides, to see whether we can take this forward in the most appropriate way and clarify the scope of any further regulation. We are happy—we had a very positive meeting, which was alluded to—and I hope that we will be able to continue to explore the issue with hon. and right hon. Members.

In this context, I also commend the all-party parliamentary group on beauty, aesthetics and wellbeing for its important work. Its inquiry highlights the huge range of non-surgical cosmetic procedures available, which vary in their level of complexity and invasiveness. We are carefully considering the findings of that report, including, in that context, its recommendation for a licensing system. We look forward to reporting our conclusions from that work early in 2022. I look forward to working with my right hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North and others on that.

Amendment 57 was tabled by the hon. Member for Wirral West (Margaret Greenwood). I can entirely understand where she is coming from—that the professions protected in law must be the right ones, with the right regulatory oversight, recognising that regulation is there for safety. We believe there is no immediate case to change the professions that are regulated, but we will consider whether any new groups of workers should be brought into statutory regulation, and the power to remove professions from regulations would only be used where regulation is no longer required for the protection of the public. For these reasons, we think the approach we are adopting is the right one, but I always reflect on what she says. Even when I do not entirely agree with all of it, I always reflect carefully because she has taken a long-standing interest in these issues.

The hon. Member for Brent Central (Dawn Butler) raised the issue of the title of “nurse” and protection for it. The title “registered nurse” is protected in law. Currently —she is right—the title “nurse” is not protected, given that it is used across multiple professions, including dental nurses, school nurses, veterinary nurses and similar. As has been pointed out by the interim chief nursing officer for Scotland, any change would need careful consideration of the impact on other groups currently using the title “nurse” outside healthcare settings.

I can see the benefit in providing reassurance and clarity for both patients and professionals. I would also note that the protection of a title is only one part of the regulatory system and the complexities associated with that. I understand where the hon. Member is coming from with her new clause 12. What I would say is that any subsequent change could form part of the legislative reform programme for the Nursing and Midwifery Council, which will be taken forward by secondary legislation made under section 60 of the Health Act 1999. But we do not feel we are able to accept her new clause, as drafted at the moment, because we do not feel that it addresses those fundamental challenges.

[Dawn Butler]

rose—

[Edward Argar]

If the hon. Member is going to be brief, I will of course give way to her.

[Dawn Butler]

I was going to quickly say that the Government’s response to Alison Leary’s very good petition says that the Government understand it. We could pass the new clause today and then the Minister could amend it in Committee.

[Edward Argar]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady, but we have had the Committee. We are now at the stage where we have been through this, and I therefore do not think it would be appropriate to pass an amendment that we thought was flawed in its drafting. I can understand the intent behind it, and I have said that I will continue to reflect on that, but we do not feel we can support the amendment as drafted.

On amendment 10 and new clause 28, hon. and right hon. Members who have spoken to those amendments from both sides of the House have raised something that I think is of huge importance to all Members of this House. As I said in my opening remarks, we all recognise that technology, kit and buildings are all wonderful if we invest in them, but they are nothing without the people—the professionals—who know how to care, are able to care and are able to use that kit to provide the best possible outcomes for our constituents. The workforce are in a sense the beating heart of our NHS, and it is important that I again recognise and join the Opposition in paying tribute to the work undertaken by the workforce.

I appreciate entirely the strongly held, sincerely held and, as ever with my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt), well-informed views that he brings to this debate, based on his extensive experience. I would extend that to the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders), in a spirit of bipartisan cordiality. I hope I have been able to help to reassure colleagues just how seriously we take this issues. Hon. and right hon. Members have been right to raise the issue. We reflect very carefully on it. We have already, as I have said, not only set out plans for elective recovery and further reforms to improve recruitment and support for our workforce, but announced yesterday the merger of Health Education England with NHS England, which we believe is an important next step in making sure that workforce needs can be considered in the round. The other key element is, as I say, the development, commissioned in July, of a robust, long-term—15-year—strategic framework for the health and social care workforce.

We are in no way complacent or resting on our laurels in the case of the workforce. Despite the significant progress we have made in recruiting more nurses and more doctors, there is clearly a lot more to do. We recognise that, and I believe it was a point well made by my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Matt Warman). He declared his interest. I do not know whether I need to, but his wife is a friend of mine; I should probably declare that too. He made some important points, a key point being that this is not just about projections for recruitment. It is absolutely right that we are focused, as we are, on the retention of our existing highly trained, highly skilled and highly experienced workforce. We look at what measures we can continue to take to address those challenges.

There is the need to recognise that that workforce—the workforce who are delivering on elective recovery and who are delivering on tackling those waiting lists—are the same people who have been working flat out throughout this pandemic, and emotionally and physically need the space and time to be able to recover. We recognise that and take it extremely seriously. I think it was my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Paul Bristow)—he has jumped around the Chamber slightly in taking his seat—who made the point about reporting and monitoring mechanisms to know how the framework is working and that we are doing the right thing. While we are not, I have to say, fully convinced by the case made by my right hon. Friend the Member for South West Surrey, I take the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough about that. I will continue to reflect very carefully on that, on what my right hon. Friend has tabled and on the points he made in debate and in his many meetings with me and other ministerial colleagues.

In the minute or so I have left, I want to briefly touch on the HSSIB amendments, which I know are important, particularly to the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Dr Whitford), but I think she reflects broader opinion in this House. As discussed in Committee, the definition given in clause 108(2) is intentionally broad. HSSIB will be carrying out a range of investigations, and we believe it would be impossible to prospectively identify the material that will be gathered and should therefore be protected by safe space. Similarly, while I take the point she makes about senior coroners and coroners’ involvement, we believe that we have struck the right balance in not extending the safe space exemptions more widely, but recognising the unique status that those judicial office holders have.

I hope I have been able to cover the main themes of the amendments tabled in this group. I hope I have been able to reassure hon. and right hon. Members on both sides of this House, particularly in respect of the workforce, just how seriously Her Majesty’s Government take that issue, and the points genuinely and sincerely made by Members on both sides of the House in that context.

Question put and agreed to.

New clause 36 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 37

Offence of offering to carry out virginity testing: England and Wales

‘(1) It is an offence under the law of England and Wales—

(a) for a person in England and Wales to offer to carry out virginity testing in the United Kingdom or virginity testing that has a sufficient jurisdictional connection, or

(b) for a person anywhere to offer to carry out virginity testing if the person is a United Kingdom national or habitually resident in England and Wales.

(2) Virginity testing has a sufficient jurisdictional connection for the purposes of subsection (1)(a) if it is carried out in relation to a person who is—

(a) a United Kingdom national, or

(b) habitually resident in the United Kingdom.

(3) In this section—

“United Kingdom national” has the meaning given by section (Offence of virginity testing: England and Wales)(4);

“virginity testing” has the meaning given by section (Offence of virginity testing: England and Wales)(2).’ —(Edward Argar.)

This new clause creates an offence under the law of England and Wales of offering to carry out virginity testing.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 38

Offence of aiding or abetting etc a person to carry out virginity testing: England and Wales

‘(1) It is an offence under the law of England and Wales for a person who is in England and Wales, or for a person who is outside England and Wales but who is a United Kingdom national or habitually resident in England and Wales, to aid, abet, counsel or procure the carrying out of virginity testing that has a sufficient jurisdictional connection.

(2) Virginity testing has a sufficient jurisdictional connection for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is carried out in relation to a person who is—

(a) in the United Kingdom,

(b) a United Kingdom national, or

(c) habitually resident in the United Kingdom.

(3) This section does not affect the application to an offence under section (Offence of virginity testing: England and Wales) of any rule of law relating to aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring.

(4) In this section—

“United Kingdom national” has the meaning given by section (Offence of virginity testing: England and Wales)(4);

“virginity testing” has the meaning given by section (Offence of virginity testing: England and Wales)(2).’. —(Edward Argar.)

This new clause creates an offence of aiding etc a person to carry out virginity testing in circumstances where the carrying out of that testing might not itself be an offence (depending on the location or status of the person carrying out the testing)

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 39

Virginity testing offences in England and Wales: penalties

‘(1) A person who commits an offence under section (Offence of virginity testing: England and Wales), (Offence of offering to carry out virginity testing: England and Wales) or (Offence of aiding or abetting etc a person to carry out virginity testing: England and Wales), is liable—In subsection (1)(a) “the maximum summary term for either-way offences” means—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding the maximum summary term for either-way offences or a fine (or both);

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or a fine (or both).

(c) in relation to an offence committed before the time when paragraph 24(2) of Schedule 22 to the Sentencing Act 2020 comes into force, 6 months;

(d) in relation to an offence committed after that time, 12 months.’ —(Edward Argar.)

This new clause sets out the penalties for the new offences under the law of England and Wales relating to virginity testing.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 40

Offence of virginity testing: Scotland

‘(1) It is an offence under the law of Scotland for a person to carry out virginity testing.

(2) “Virginity testing” means the examination of female genitalia, with or without consent, for the purpose (or purported purpose) of determining virginity.

(3) An offence is committed under subsection (1) only if the person—

(a) is in Scotland, or

(b) is outside the United Kingdom, and is a United Kingdom national or habitually resident in Scotland.

(4) “United Kingdom national” means an individual who is—

(a) a British citizen, a British overseas territories citizen, a British National (Overseas) or a British Overseas citizen,

(b) a person who under the British Nationality Act 1981 is a British subject, or

(c) a British protected person within the meaning of that Act.

(5) In subsection (2), “female genitalia” means a vagina or vulva.’

This new clause creates an offence under the law of Scotland of virginity testing.—(Edward Argar.)

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 41

Offence of offering to carry out virginity testing: Scotland

‘(1) It is an offence under the law of Scotland—

(a) for a person in Scotland to offer to carry out virginity testing in the United Kingdom or virginity testing that has a sufficient jurisdictional connection, or

(b) for a person anywhere to offer to carry out virginity testing if the person is a United Kingdom national or habitually resident in Scotland.

(2) Virginity testing has a sufficient jurisdictional connection for the purposes of subsection (1)(a) if it is carried out in relation to a person who is—

(a) a United Kingdom national, or

(b) habitually resident in the United Kingdom.

(3) In this section—

“United Kingdom national” has the meaning given by section (Offence of virginity testing: Scotland)(4);

“virginity testing” has the meaning given by section (Offence of virginity testing: Scotland)(2).’ —(Edward Argar.)

This new clause creates an offence under the law of Scotland of offering to carry out virginity testing.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 42

Offence of aiding or abetting etc a person to carry out virginity testing: Scotland

‘(1) It is an offence under the law of Scotland for a person who is in Scotland, or for a person who is outside Scotland but who is a United Kingdom national or habitually resident in Scotland, to aid, abet, counsel, procure or incite the carrying out of virginity testing that has a sufficient jurisdictional connection.

(2) Virginity testing has a sufficient jurisdictional connection for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is carried out in relation to a person who is—

(a) in the United Kingdom,

(b) a United Kingdom national, or

(c) habitually resident in the United Kingdom.

(3) This section does not affect the application to an offence under section (Offence of virginity testing: Scotland) of any rule of law relating to aiding, abetting, counselling, procuring or inciting.

(4) In this section—

“United Kingdom national” has the meaning given by section (Offence of virginity testing: Scotland)(4);

“virginity testing” has the meaning given by section (Offence of virginity testing: Scotland)(2).’ —(Edward Argar.)

This new clause creates an offence of aiding etc a person to carry out virginity testing in circumstances where the carrying out of that testing might not itself be an offence (depending on the location or status of the person carrying out the testing).

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 43

Virginity testing offences in Scotland: penalties and supplementary

‘(1) A person who commits an offence under section (Offence of virginity testing: Scotland), (Offence of offering to carry out virginity testing: Scotland) or (Offence of aiding or abetting etc a person to carry out virginity testing: Scotland), is liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or both);

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or a fine (or both).

(2) Where a person outside Scotland commits an offence under section (Offence of virginity testing: Scotland), (Offence of offering to carry out virginity testing: Scotland) or (Offence of aiding or abetting etc a person to carry out virginity testing: Scotland) the person may be prosecuted, tried and punished for the offence—

(a) in a sheriff court district in which the person is apprehended or in custody, or

(b) in a sheriff court district determined by the Lord Advocate,

as if the offence had been committed in that district.

Where subsection (2) applies, the offence is, for all purposes incidental to or consequential on the trial and punishment, deemed to have been committed in that district.

(3) In this section “sheriff court district” is to be construed in accordance with section 307(1) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 (interpretation).’—(Edward Argar.)

This new clause sets out the penalties for the new offences under the law of Scotland relating to virginity testing.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 44

Offence of virginity testing: Northern Ireland

‘(1) It is an offence under the law of Northern Ireland for a person to carry out virginity testing.

(2) “Virginity testing” means the examination of female genitalia, with or without consent, for the purpose (or purported purpose) of determining virginity.

(3) An offence is committed under subsection (1) only if the person—

(a) is in Northern Ireland, or

(b) is outside the United Kingdom, and is a United Kingdom national or habitually resident in Northern Ireland.

(4) “United Kingdom national” means an individual who is—

(a) a British citizen, a British overseas territories citizen, a British National (Overseas) or a British Overseas citizen,

(b) a person who under the British Nationality Act 1981 is a British subject, or

(c) a British protected person within the meaning of that Act.

(5) In subsection (2), “female genitalia” means a vagina or vulva.’ —(Edward Argar.)

This new clause creates an offence under the law of Northern Ireland of virginity testing.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 45

Offence of offering to carry out virginity testing: Northern Ireland

‘(1) It is an offence under the law of Northern Ireland—

(a) for a person in Northern Ireland to offer to carry out virginity testing in the United Kingdom or virginity testing that has a sufficient jurisdictional connection, or

(b) for a person anywhere to offer to carry out virginity testing if the person is a United Kingdom national or habitually resident in Northern Ireland.

(2) Virginity testing has a sufficient jurisdictional connection for the purposes of subsection (1)(a) if it is carried out in relation to a person who is—

(a) a United Kingdom national, or

(b) habitually resident in the United Kingdom.

(3) In this section—

“United Kingdom national” has the meaning given by section (Offence of virginity testing: Northern Ireland)(4);

“virginity testing” has the meaning given by section (Offence of virginity testing: Northern Ireland)(2).’ —(Edward Argar.)

This new clause creates an offence under the law of Northern Ireland of offering to carry out virginity testing.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 46

Offence of aiding or abetting etc a person to carry out virginity testing: Northern Ireland

‘(1) It is an offence under the law of Northern Ireland for a person who is in Northern Ireland, or for a person who is outside Northern Ireland but who is a United Kingdom national or habitually resident in Northern Ireland, to aid, abet, counsel or procure the carrying out of virginity testing that has a sufficient jurisdictional connection.

(2) Virginity testing has a sufficient jurisdictional connection for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is carried out in relation to a person who is—

(a) in the United Kingdom,

(b) a United Kingdom national, or

(c) habitually resident in the United Kingdom.

(3) This section does not affect the application to an offence under section (Offence of virginity testing: Northern Ireland) of any rule of law relating to aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring.

(4) In this section—

“United Kingdom national” has the meaning given by section (Offence of virginity testing: Northern Ireland)(4);

“virginity testing” has the meaning given by section (Offence of virginity testing: Northern Ireland)(2).’ —(Edward Argar.)

This new clause creates an offence of aiding etc a person to carry out virginity testing in circumstances where the carrying out of that testing might not itself be an offence (depending on the location or status of the person carrying out the testing).

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 47

Virginity testing offences in Northern Ireland: penalties

‘A person who commits an offence under section (Offence of virginity testing: Northern Ireland), (Offence of offering to carry out virginity testing: Northern Ireland) or (Offence of aiding or abetting etc a person to carry out virginity testing: Northern Ireland) is liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or both);

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or a fine (or both).” —(Edward Argar.)

This new clause sets out the penalties for the new offences under the law of Northern Ireland relating to virginity testing.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.

New Clause 48

Virginity testing: consequential amendments

‘Schedule (Virginity testing: consequential amendments) contains consequential amendments.’—(Edward Argar.)

This new clause introduces a Schedule of consequential amendments relating to the new virginity testing offences.

Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.