Draft Justification Decision (Scientific Age Imaging) Regulations 2023

Debate between Edward Argar and Chris Stephens

Monday 20th November 2023 General Committees

[Edward Argar]

The point I would make in respect of the vast majority of cases, the justifying authority is looking to see whether, under those regulations, it is possible for the Home Office to proceed in this way. The hon. Member for Hemsworth quoted from page six of the report. I would also highlight another quote on page six:

“The decision to use X-ray imaging appears well considered and appropriate to minimise any individual’s radiation exposure.”

That is what the Secretary of State has been looking at in this context: whether the measure meets the threshold of those regulations for the Home Office as the applying authority to bring forward specific proposals, which it will do.

The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth, did make one point that is directly relevant to these regulations, which concerned how a review would work. As the justifying authority, we will undertake a review if, for example, new or important information is acquired about efficacy or consequences, other techniques or technologies that have the same objectives become available, or there are any obvious relevant changes in practice, science or technology. I should be explicit that the statutory instrument does not include a statutory review, but the Ministry of Justice as the justifying authority will continue to monitor and review the use of X-rays in this context as the shadow Minister would expect.

I suspect that the spokesman for the Scottish National party, the hon. Member for Glasgow South West, may reprise a number of the arguments and questions that he has just put to me to a Home Office Minister as the applying authority in another Committee in about an hour. There are a number of points to consider. On informed consent, that would again be a question for the Home Office as the authority wishing to carry out this policy. Similarly, on the question of a scientific method of age assessment, it is recognised in the documents that the Government have put forward that assessing an individual’s age is an incredibly complex task and there is no single methodology, scientific or otherwise, can determine a person’s age with absolute precision. However, as I set out earlier, this will be one consideration in weighing up the evidence based on either the individual’s declared age or a social worker’s assessment of it.

[Chris Stephens]

I assume that the Minister thought I was speaking to the statutory instrument—shock horror. A number of human rights groups have raised concerns. Has he, as the justifying authority, had a look at those? Obviously, there are clear concerns about human rights.

[Edward Argar]

I am grateful to the SNP spokesman for that. In considering this as the justifying authority, the Secretary of State has had due regard to those named consultees that, under the 2004 Regulations, he is obliged to consult on the justification decisions. It would be for the Home Office to set out what discussions it had had—I think it was either the hon. Member for Brentford and Isleworth or the hon. Member for Hemsworth who talked about local authorities, campaign groups and others—in how they designed that policy and what they proposed when they bring that forward. That would be a matter for Home Office Ministers. I am perhaps being less forthcoming than I normally would be—the hon. Member for Glasgow South West has opposed me in Committee before—because I am deliberately drawing that distinction between the justifying authority, which is functionally separate in looking at what it actually has to look at as the MOJ, from the Home Office as the Department that has to introduce the specific regulations on how this policy would work. On that basis, I commend this decision and this statutory instrument to the Committee.

Question put,

Cammell Laird Workers Imprisoned in 1984

Debate between Edward Argar and Chris Stephens

Tuesday 7th February 2023 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Edward Argar)]

Thank you very much, Sir Christopher—I think you are the only Member of this House in the Chamber today who was also a Member back in 1984.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Harrow West (Gareth Thomas) on securing this important debate. He and I have exchanged views across the Dispatch Box in this Chamber on a number of issues in the past, when I have been in different roles, and I have always sought to be constructive; I will endeavour to be so again in responding to him and other hon. Members today.

I also recognise, as other hon. Members have done, the campaigning work of the hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mick Whitley). I know he would have wished to be here, but following his covid test, he is not able to be. I hope he is okay, and if he has any symptoms, I hope he recovers very quickly and is back with us soon—tabling questions to me on this matter, I suspect, or raising the issue in the Chamber. I wish him a speedy recovery.

As we have heard, in 1984 37 workers were involved in an occupation of the Cammell Laird shipyard at Birkenhead in a bid to stop compulsory redundancies. I recognise the huge value of the work undertaken by those working in shipbuilding and the huge pride that was, and continues to be, felt by people in shipbuilding and a whole range of important industrial sectors. A number of hon. Members have highlighted that, and it is important that we put it on the record.

The 37 were sentenced to 30 days’ imprisonment for contempt of court after refusing to comply with a judge’s orders to leave the partially built gas rig, as we have also heard. I do not propose to recount all the circumstances—the hon. Member for Harrow West set them out very clearly, as did a number of other Members, particularly the hon. Member for Liverpool, West Derby (Ian Byrne). He gave a passionate and moving speech, not only showing the depths of his feelings on the issue, but highlighting through individual examples the impact that it has had.

Hon. Members often listen to each other carefully in this place—all the time, I hope—but it is perhaps a little rarer for hon. Members to learn something, or to hear a speech that causes them to reflect further. The speech made by the hon. Member for Harrow West achieved that, and I pay tribute to him for it; it was genuinely interesting and thoughtful. The hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) is always passionate. I hope not to damage his political career by saying that I have huge respect for him, but he knows of what he speaks, and he speaks with not only knowledge but experience. Again, it may damage his political career if I say that I do not believe I have ever called him a militant—he may wish I had—but none the less, in the spirit of this debate, let me say that he makes his points fairly and passionately.

The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Justin Madders) had the dubious privilege of being my shadow for almost three years. He and I debated a number of issues in the context of health. He always does his research, and speaks with moderation but also with a clear view of these matters; I pay tribute to him. I was going to say the hon. Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon) shadowed me in a previous role, but he was actually far more elevated—he was shadowing the Lord Chancellor. While we do not often share the same political perspective, I could never—and I do not think anyone could ever—doubt the sincerity with which he holds and propounds the views and positions he does on behalf of his constituents.

The 37 were imprisoned for 30 days in HMP Walton. It is important to highlight that they were imprisoned for contempt. They were subsequently dismissed from their jobs and lost the right to redundancy and their pensions. As hon. Members will know, sentencing in that case, as in others, is a matter for our judiciary; we cannot comment on the decisions made by the judiciary in that respect.

Before turning to the details, I will say a little about contempt. If a party, when summoned to appear, admits the contempt and complies with the instructions regarding the contempt, often no further action will be taken. But if not, upon proof of the contempt the court has to impose penalties. That is a matter for the independent judge. I understand that in this case the official solicitor put forward various arguments against the duration and nature of the penalty. That independent judge rejected those arguments.

I highlight at the outset that I recognise that this is an incredibly difficult case for all those concerned, and for the local community at the time more broadly, with far-reaching and long-lasting impacts. There are understandably strong feelings about the case. I may not always agree with everything it propounds, but I highlight the work that the GMB—at the time, the General, Municipal, Boilermakers and Allied Trades Union—has done, and the tenacity with which it has pursued the matter. I am not unsympathetic to the case, and in particular to the impact it has had on individuals. I recognise that due to the passage of time a number of those individuals have sadly passed away in the intervening years.

I also take this opportunity to highlight that this Government do recognise the ability to strike as an important part of industrial relations in the UK, rightly protected by law. We understand and recognise that an element of disruption is a key part of that. I do not think that is in anyway incompatible with the necessary legislation currently going through Parliament in respect of minimum service levels.

I should also state that the hon. Member for Glasgow South West (Chris Stephens) sat on a Bill Committee with me looking at some of these issues back in 2015-16, when we were first elected to this place. As I said then, I recognise the important role that trade unions play in our economy and society.

[Chris Stephens]

The Minister refers to the new Bill. If that Bill had applied to the Cammell Laird 37, they would have been dismissed with no right to a tribunal. Does the Minister seriously think that is fair? That is what the new Bill says.

[Edward Argar]

The new Bill refers to very specific areas of service in specific sectors, subject to further delegated legislation where such minimum service levels could be required. I do not think the parallel he draws is directly analogous.

It is important to note that the world has changed since the 1980s. Back then, unions tended to protect their members through collective action and did not rely on the courts to the same extent that they do today. Individual employment rights were less common than they are now. Since the 1980s, the industrial relations landscape has significantly changed, with a greater emphasis on individual rights. Nowadays, when they are recruiting, employers cannot discriminate on the grounds of trade union membership or activity. Similarly, an employer cannot dismiss a worker for being a member of, or active in, a trade union. Workers benefit from legal protections when taking lawful industrial action.

Today, blacklisting is, rightly, completely unacceptable and has no place in modern employment relations. Any individual or trade union who believes they have been a victim of this practice can enforce their rights under the regulations, through an employment tribunal or the county court. The Employment Relations Act 1999 (Blacklists) Regulations 2010 are further reinforced by powers in the Data Protection Act 2018 protecting the use of personal data, including information on trade union membership and sensitive personal data. The Information Commissioner’s Office regulates the use of personal data and investigates breaches of the Data Protection Act. It has the power to take enforcement action, including searching premises, issuing enforcement notices and imposing fines for serious breaches. Anyone with evidence of offences in that area should present it to the Information Commissioner’s office.

The specific question posed by this debate relates to the potential merit of holding a public inquiry into the Cammell Laird workers imprisoned in 1984. As I have alluded to in reference to the hon. Member for Harrow West, I do recognise that this is an issue of abiding parliamentary interest, and the number of hon. Members in the Chamber today reflects that. Although debates in this Chamber are often about important subjects, it is not always as well populated with hon. Members.

Public inquiries are independent investigations into matters of significant public concern. They can be established by the Government and led by an independent chair. They are usually asked to establish the facts surrounding a particular serious issue and consider the lessons to be learned from what has happened, as well as to make recommendations intended to help correct the deficiencies for the future. For example, an inquiry might be established to determine the cause of a major disaster or accident.

When the Government determine that a matter is sufficiently serious to meet the bar to warrant an inquiry, there are number of options for the form that might take, including the establishment of an inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005. As the right hon. Member for Knowsley highlighted, that is not the only option in this space. Unfortunately, by the vagaries of how debates are allocated, although the Ministry of Justice owns the Inquiries Act 2005 and Inquiry Rules 2006, Justice Ministers do not have any power to decide whether to set up such an inquiry. That would fall to the Department with the policy or operational responsibility for the issue under consideration. Therefore, as a Justice Minister, I have no power to agree to the request for a public inquiry. However, industrial relations and how they were historically dealt with, although not a matter for the Ministry of Justice, do fall under other Government Departments. Although I cannot comment on the merits of an inquiry in this instance, other Departments would have an interest. I will turn to that in a moment.

Document disclosure is a vital part of an inquiry, as the hon. Member for Glasgow South West highlighted. As the Government have previously set out, this Department has conducted extensive searches of its records and those in the court and prison systems. I understand that nothing has been found in relation to the Cammell Laird strike action or the strikers themselves. Other Departments—the Cabinet Office, Home Office and the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, as it was until a few hours ago today—have likewise confirmed that they do not believe they hold potentially relevant material.

This is an area of legal complexity. In the spirit of constructiveness, I want to try to address some of the points raised by the hon. Member for Harrow West and the shadow Minister about previous answers on this and explore other routes that might be available—notwithstanding that I cannot opine on the merits of a public inquiry.

Trade Union Bill (Fifth sitting)

Debate between Edward Argar and Chris Stephens

Tuesday 20th October 2015 Public Bill Committees

[Chris Stephens]

This group of amendments could be called the devolved group. It goes to the heart of principles regarding mandates—not just the mandates that trade unions derive with regard to taking industrial action, but whether there is a mandate across the nations of the UK for the Bill and for specific clauses within it. That is natural, when we have four nations in the UK with a different leading party in each.

The amendments also raise issues of consent. The devolved Administrations and local authorities are being dictated to by the Bill regarding how they conduct their industrial relations. There are issues regarding the effect on the spirit of friendship and solidarity across the UK, and regarding our mandate, which is to seek the devolution of employment law in the Scotland Bill. It is important to point out that Parliament has yet to put to the test whether employment law should be devolved to Scotland.

The constitutional issues that arise from the Bill could have serious consequences. We were told by Ministers in the evidence sessions that industrial relations are reserved, but in reality they are not. The reality is that devolved Administrations in the past have kept the two-tier workforce agreements, which the coalition Government removed for workers in the public sector in England.

[Edward Argar (Charnwood) (Con)]

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept, though, as the Scottish Cabinet Secretary Ms Cunningham did, that industrial relations are currently reserved?

[Chris Stephens]

Ms Cunningham then went on to make the position clear about the impact that would have. The hon. Gentleman is correct that industrial relations are reserved at this point, but an electoral mandate was given to 56 MPs who were elected in May—I could argue that there are 58 MPs in Scotland who are opposed to the Bill. The Bill is a real concern, because it ignores, for example, the work of the Scottish Government in setting up the Scottish fair work convention. They are working in partnership with trade unions rather than seeing them as the enemy of the public and using the kind of rhetoric we have heard while discussing the Bill.

The Bill brings into question the impact of the industrial relations capacity. We have heard from the local authorities in Scotland. Conservative councillor Billy Hendry said in a Convention of Scottish Local Authorities statement that COSLA is opposed to the Bill. The Bill seeks to dictate to the devolved Administrations on issues of facility time and check-off. There seems little support in Scotland and Wales or in aspects of the public sector in England for the removal of check-off. Check-off is a voluntary arrangement, and for the UK Government to dictate to parts of the public sector who have an electoral mandate to conduct industrial relations is wrong. It will be interesting to hear from the Minister whether he has responded to the Scottish or Welsh Governments on the principles of consent.

More importantly, the deputy General Secretary of the Scottish Trades Union Congress at our political conference in Aberdeen at the weekend, at a fringe meeting, described the principles around facility time and check-off to be the most pernicious parts of the Bill, simply because it strikes at the heart of trade union organisation. Employers benefit from employees having good facility time. They know who they are; they are people who can deal with people and sort issues out; it leads to fewer tribunal claims, less litigation, better health and safety and, indeed it can lead to lifelong learning for employees as well. Those are the very real benefits of facility time.

There was no consultation with the public sector, this provision interferes with electoral and political mandates, and I believe that there is a lack of consent for the Bill across many parts of the UK.