Data Protection Bill [HL]

Earl of Erroll Excerpts

Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Puttnam (Lab)]

My Lords, I add my voice in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, on her amendment and on the way it was presented. I will try to add additional value to the discussion. I, along with the noble Baronesses, Lady Harding, Lady Shields, and Lady Lane-Fox, have spent a lot of the time—in my case, 20 years—defending and promoting the tech industry. I believe in the tech industry and in its educational capacity and many of the developments it can produce. I also have many friends in the tech industry, which makes it doubly difficult. That is why I find it so difficult to understand why they are not part of this.

One reason, which is important but which has not been mentioned, is that these are the UK subsidiaries of major global businesses. When well-meaning people in the UK look at this problem and would probably like to address it, they get barked at down the phone by someone who has no conception of the strength of feeling in this House or in the UK and Europe, and so they do not get a sympathetic hearing. By passing this amendment, this House can send a message back to the west coast of the United States to say, “I’m very sorry—your values do not prevail here. We’re looking for something different: a tech industry that supports, enhances and encourages the type of society that we all want to be part of”. It is important to get that message back.

It is not just us saying that. David Brooks, the eminent journalist for the New York Times, ended his piece on 20 November by saying:

“Tech will have few defenders on the national scene. Obviously, the smart play would be for the tech industry to get out in front and clean up its own pollution”.


That is the intelligent view. The tech industry I have promoted and believe in will get out in front and understand the signal that is being sent from this House, and will begin to do something about it. It will be quite surprising what they can do, because in a sense we may well be helping the senior executives in Europe to get their message back to the west coast of the United States. That is one important reason why I support the amendment.

[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, I cannot add much to what the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, said when she took us on her concise comprehensive canter through her amendments, but I will mention two things.

The first is in response to the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, who is right to say that enforcement is essential, particularly because it is international—the internet is international. We faced this with Part 3 of the Digital Economy Act in trying to prevent children getting pornography. One of the things that became apparent is that the payment services providers are good on this sort of thing, and if it looks right and the community agrees it, they will withdraw payment services from people who do not comply. As most websites are out there to make money, if they cannot get the money in, they quickly come into line. So there may be some enforcement possibilities in that area, as it ends up being international.

The other thing we noticed is that the world is watching us in Britain because we are leading on a lot of these things. If we can make this effective, I think other countries will start to roll it out, which makes it much easier to make it effective. It is a big question because at the end of the day we are trying to balance the well-meaning desire of the developers and those producing these apps, who want to deliver a ubiquitous, useful utility everywhere, with the protection of the young. That is a difficult thing to do, which is why this has to remain flexible. We have to leave it up to someone who is very wise to get us there. If we get it right, this could be a very good step forward.

[Lord Best (CB)]

My Lords, I rise in support of these amendments, as if any further support were needed. I speak as the Member of your Lordships’ House who chaired your Communications Committee when we produced our report, Growing Up With the Internet. My noble friend Lady Kidron was a most distinguished member of the committee and greatly helped us in formulating our recommendations. Alongside support for parents and schools and other measures, the committee sought government intervention in curbing the poor practices of the organisations providing content and delivering the internet’s services to children, especially through social media. This group of amendments takes forward that central theme from the committee’s report, and I thank my noble friend and congratulate her on her foresight and tenacity in pursuing this. I also thank the Minister, backed by his Secretary of State, for supporting these amendments today.

The underlying significance of the amendments is that they establish a process for government—for society—to intervene in determining the behaviour of those responsible for internet services that can have such a huge impact on the lives of our children. In particular, the new process will cover the activities of huge global companies such as Facebook and Google, among the most prosperous and profitable organisations on the planet, which have the power, if only they would use it, to ensure the safety and well-being of children online. The process set in train by these amendments involves empowering the Information Commissioner to set the standards that all the key players will be expected to adopt or face significant sanctions. The amendments mark a necessary shift away from depending on good will and purely voluntary self-regulation. They represent a breakthrough in holding to account those mighty corporations based far away in Silicon Valley, to which the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, made reference, and others closer to home. It is good to see major organisation such as Sky and TalkTalk supporting such a change, alongside the major charities such as the NSPCC.

Your Lordships’ Communications Committee and the whole House owe a huge debt of gratitude to my noble friend Lady Kidron for so diligently taking forward the arguments that have led to the significant change which these amendments herald. I know that the committee, as well as all those concerned with the safety and well-being of the nation’s children, will greatly welcome this big step towards ensuring better behaviour from all the relevant commercial enterprises. I suggest that this is a major step in protecting not just children in the UK but children around the world as the value of this kind of intervention becomes recognised, as the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, mentioned. The amendments get my fulsome support.