Ministerial and other Salaries Act 1975 (Amendment) Order 2011

Earl of Courtown Excerpts

Tuesday 5th July 2011 Grand Committee

[The Earl of Courtown]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the Minister for telling the Committee that there has been a £700,000 saving in ministerial salaries. However, does that take into account those Ministers, Whips and Members of the Front Bench who do not receive a salary? I should be interested to know how many Members on the Front Bench in this House and the other place are not in receipt of a salary. If they are not, do they accrue any form of pension benefit? I think that the Ministers in this House do a grand job—the same as when the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, was in power—and they are not paid nearly enough. I look forward to hearing what my noble friend has to say.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, I declare an interest as being in receipt of a ministerial or other salary. I have been for some time and I am very grateful to the Government.

I am also very grateful to the Minister for pointing out that the previous Government also had a policy of not increasing salaries. Of course, I am attracted—I would be, wouldn’t I?—by the idea from the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, that, rather than reduce ministerial salaries, there should be a reduction in Ministers. I jest but I believe now, as I did when we were in government, that there are too many Ministers. I do not think that that should have an impact on salaries but I firmly believe that there are too many Ministers—in the other place, of course—although Ministers work phenomenally hard.

I am not sure what the noble Earl was getting at but I think that it is wrong in principle for there to be unpaid Ministers. A Minister is a Minister; they do a fantastic job and should be paid accordingly.

Of course, when everyone in the whole country is having to tighten their belts, it is right that those in receipt of ministerial salaries should do likewise. Resources are limited and we have to take our share of the pain. Although I would strenuously argue that the cuts to our public services in general are too deep and being made too fast, I do not think that that is the case in relation to ministerial salaries. The Prime Minister was correct when he acted as a sort of catalyst for this legislation.

[Baroness Verma]

Again, I start by thanking my noble friends and the noble Baroness for their broadly warm welcome for the order and for their questions about ministerial salaries. I should like to start by responding to the point made by my noble friend Lord Maclennan—whose name, I hope, I have got right this time—about it being gesture politics. The fact is that we need to show that we in government are prepared to take some of the bites that are going to affect every single citizen because of the financial difficulties that this country is in. I want to resist saying that it is gesture politics: we have a duty to show that we are willing to take some of the pain. It may not look as though it is a lot of the pain but those of us who work incredibly hard feel that it is only right that we all share in it, and the previous Government did the same.

I should also like to thank my noble friend for his kind words. Ministers in both this House and another place work very hard and often with gruelling hours on subjects that we have to get our minds around very quickly, as is the case today. This is not my normal remit—and I think that is true of the noble Baroness, too.

There are 13 unpaid Ministers in government, three in the Commons and 10 in the Lords. The former Administration had the same number of unpaid Ministers before leaving office, with nine from the Commons and four from the Lords. The Government believe that the number of Ministers should be dictated by need, and on this basis have carefully considered all the appointments that they have made. Because of the nature of the coalition Government and the challenge of delivering the programme for government, the Prime Minister did not think that it was possible to reduce significantly the number of Ministers at this time. However, the Government have reduced the number of Ministers who regularly attend meetings of the Cabinet. I hope that has answered my noble friend’s question.

[The Earl of Courtown]

Perhaps I did not explain well enough the point that I was really making. The Minister said that at the other end there are three Ministers not in receipt of a salary, and 10 noble friends at this end. At least down the other end they receive a parliamentary salary.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I enter into territory that is way over my pay grade, and the safest option for me is now for me to retreat into a safer area. I shall respond to the question about pension contributions. It is correct that these measures are not retrospective; salaries in the amendment order come into effect when the order comes into force. On the question of unpaid Ministers who might be in receipt of pensions—no, it deals only with salaried Ministers. Unpaid Ministers are not entitled to a pension under the parliamentary pension scheme.

I am not getting much more inspiration from behind me on any further questions, so I undertake to write to noble Lords on any questions that have not been answered.