Digital Economy Bill

Debate between Drew Hendry and Calum Kerr

3rd reading: House of Commons & Legislative Grand Committee: House of Commons & Programme motion No. 3: House of Commons & Report stage: House of Commons
Monday 28th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Calum Kerr]

I stand to speak to new clauses 22 and 27, neither of which I think the Minister referred to—unless I slept through that bit. I hang on his every word normally, so I am sure that was not the case.

Before I do that, I would like to touch on a couple of other new clauses. It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry). She and her many colleagues in the House have campaigned hard on this issue, and the Government’s move in new clause 28 is welcome. However, I would just quickly recount a story. When I was on the Bill Committee, I phoned home one night. Of course my wife said, “What have you been up to today?” I explained about access to under-age pornography, and she said, “Well, funnily enough, I came home today from work and found Robert”—he is seven years old—“looking at inappropriate content.” My heart sank. She said, “He was watching the third presidential debate,” and I can see where she was coming from. She said to him, “Robert, do you know what you are watching here?” He said, “Yes, I do.” She said, “Well, why are you watching that?” He said, “Because it’s important, and I have a friend at school called Donald.”

That brings me on to the concerns raised by the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), which we share. As we proceed down this route, it is important that these powers are a last resort, that they do not stop access to sites they were not intended to affect and that, as a result, we proceed with care. We should take sufficient time to look at the implications, and we should seek to avoid unintended consequences for ISPs and websites, while still developing a robust set of measures that stop young Robert accessing the content we really want him to avoid.

Earlier, we had mention of the importance of the method of verification and of the tool Yoti. I always pronounce it “yachty”, because I like yachty a loty, given that it means that databases are not built of what people are accessing, and individuals are protected. I commend those on the Labour Front Bench for some of their efforts to push these things further.

Let me quickly touch on two issues before going on to my own new clauses. On new clause 7, I am surprised by the Minister’s approach to mobile phone contracts. If he consulted Ofcom, it would tell him that it was highly supportive of measures such as a maximum bill level. It seems eminently sensible that when people sign up for a contract, they are asked, “Would you like to set a maximum amount?” I really cannot fathom why the Government would block that. I fully expect to revisit that sometime soon.

I would also ask the Minister to check some of the wording in terms of the ESN sites, which he said would be available to all providers. That is not my understanding. The ESN is provided by EE, but also by extended area network sites, and those are the sites that will be multi-platform, but they are only part of how the service will be provided, so perhaps the Minister will revisit and consider what he said there.

My hon. Friend the Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Drew Hendry), whose constituency name is as long as mine, is worried he may not get to speak, so I will mention his new clause 20, which is very similar to new clause 25, and provides for a constituent to cancel a contract if they do not have service.

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

In some circumstances, a consumer is unable to get what they have paid for. For example, I had consumers in Fort Augustus who had to wait over four months to be reconnected to their mobile signal and were threatened with a £200 cancellation fee. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is flatly unacceptable and they should have an option to get out of these contracts?

[Calum Kerr]

I wholeheartedly agree with that excellent point. This is another common-sense measure that should be taken. I also welcome some of the other comments about linking it to auto-compensation so that it should be a case of either cancelling a contract or potentially—

[Drew Hendry]

I wonder whether my hon. Friend is surprised, as I am, although perhaps I should not be, that the Minister has refused to accept this, given that last year his predecessor said to me:

“The suggestion you make—that mobile customers ought to be able to leave their contracts if the service is unacceptable is a good one. Mobile customers should not be trapped in contracts if they have no effective signal and an unusable service.”

[Calum Kerr]

I thank my hon. Friend for that extra clarification. This is why we entered the Bill Committee in a spirit of naive optimism that our sensible new clauses could yet be accepted.

--- Later in debate ---

[Drew Hendry]

How we learned!

[Calum Kerr]

How we learned, indeed.

I now move on to my two new clauses. New clause 22 proposes that there should be an explicit power for structural separation of BT Openreach were that deemed necessary. We in this place know how critically important connectivity is, and I am sure that all right hon. and hon. Members welcomed, as I did, Ofcom’s digital communications review. I support its taking a fairly strong line on the measures that BT should take on access to ducts and poles, and on making a planning tool and other things more readily available, while retaining the option of structural separation. Indeed, the Secretary of State confirmed this on Second Reading. If structural separation is truly to be an option on the table, it is essential that Ofcom is confident that it can enforce it if it concludes that it is necessary.

The current situation is that Ofcom considers that it has the power under the EU framework directive to impose structural separation. Clearly, though, taking such a case to the EU Commission at a time when Brexit means Brexit is fraught with difficulty, especially considering that it is highly likely that BT would appeal any such move. It is also worth noting that BT has stated publicly that it believes there is no mechanism for structural separations of a telecoms company, and has even threatened 10 years of litigation and arguments. This Bill offers a simple way to remove any ambiguity around the issue, and that is what the new clause aims to do.

Unfortunately, owing to the processes of the House, I can press only one new clause in this group to a vote, so I will not press this one, much as I would like to. However, I encourage the Minister to revisit this measure and add it in, even though I still believe that the Ofcom strategy is right and that separation is the correct route only if combined with something else, such as a significant investment plan in Openreach from other providers who are currently making a lot of noise.

New clause 27 is about introducing a broadband voucher scheme as an alternative to the standard USO provision. Let me first say that I welcome, as I am sure we all do, anything that improves connectivity, but I have huge reservations about the approach being taken. I appreciate that, as the Government outlined in supplementary papers during the Bill’s progress, there is a flexible element to their design of the USO in terms of download speed, upload speed, latency and other aspects, but much is undecided. Although I disagree fundamentally with the 10-meg starting point, what really concerns me is the use of a universal service obligation. Pursuing this route pushes the Government into having to follow a very prescriptive process that will lead to a provider, or perhaps of couple of providers, being selected. It looks highly likely, as I think we all know, that it is likely to be BT. Sharon White confirmed before the DCMS Committee that BT is in pole position on this.

[Drew Hendry]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent point. Does he agree that the people who need the service should be able to choose the best option for them, and that in rural areas one size does not fit all?

[Calum Kerr]

I absolutely do agree. I will come on to that point later.

I would contrast the USO measure with last week’s announcements. We have heard the Government say that fibre is the future, but our record in this country on fibre-to-the-home, or fibre-to-the-premises, is pretty woeful. The broadband investment fund announced in a previous Budget had some money put into it, and hundreds of millions of pounds were committed to 5G trials and fibre backbone. All that is welcome, if slightly unambitious, but we have not seen anything specifically for rural areas. We are talking about a fibre and gigabit future in urban areas while telling rural areas that they should settle for 10 megs and a USO. That is not closing the digital divide—it is turning it into a gaping chasm of inequality. A badly implemented USO will not fix the issue but might, through legislation, cement this digital divide.

My new clause aims to address this issue. From the start, as I have looked at potential solutions, the one that I kept coming back to was a voucher alternative. At the Broadband World Forum, a representative from the Independent Networks Cooperative Association said that if we introduce a voucher scheme, we turn a universal service obligation into a universal service opportunity. In our constituencies we have highly motivated groups of people who will, yes, okay, maybe on day one, be happy with 10 megs because if they have been living with 1 meg it will be transformational, but quickly see that they are being left behind and be very unhappy about it. Although the Bill includes provision to revisit this, it does not specify when, and these people will be left further and further behind. The idea of a voucher scheme was endorsed by INCA chairman David Cullen, who said:

“The principle of a Universal Service Obligation is an outdated concept in a sector focused on significant growth and could well translate into a ‘ceiling’…a voucher scheme for premises could be far more effective.”

The Minister did not deal with this new clause in his opening remarks. I urge the Government to embrace the option of a voucher alternative to empower our rural communities, who, as I know from my own community, want to go further. They understand technology. They will put in fibre-to-the-home, providing a much faster solution. This is not a one-size-fits-all—

Release of Spectrum Band

Debate between Drew Hendry and Calum Kerr

Tuesday 15th November 2016 Westminster Hall

[Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Flello. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (Calum Kerr) on securing this important debate. I am sure that the tens of millions of people who have heard about it will be streaming it right now on their mobile phones, to get Members’ words of wisdom.

An important set of points have been made. On the point made by the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Nigel Huddleston), there is a clear need for further debate and scrutiny, and for far more attention than is given to the subject at the moment. That was laid bare in the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk, who highlighted a number of issues that are important—nay, essential—to ensuring a fair distribution of the opportunities provided by the technology in the future. He mentioned the need for rural coverage to take priority—for an outside-in approach to be applied. For far too long, people in rural or less commercial areas have found themselves stuck at the back of a queue, unable ever to get to the front because they are always overtaken by a commercial imperative. The situation in the Borders is, I think, similar to that in my own area, where some 432 miles of road are not covered by 2G, let alone 3G or 4G signals. Those issues must seriously be addressed.

I commend my hon. Friend for his suggestion about the approach taken by Germany. He pointed out that not only is there a requirement there to get to 90% coverage in smaller towns before widening access, but they managed to raise €5 billion through the licensing process, so that approach can be taken and at the same time a return made for the public purse.

[Calum Kerr]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is also noteworthy that in Germany they have mandated minimum data speeds, with a minimum average of 10 megabits? Coincidentally, our own measly universal service obligation for fixed wired broadband stands at that same speed.

[Drew Hendry]

My hon. Friend shows just how on top of his brief he is by pointing out that anomaly and the lack of ambition we often see when it comes to broadband and wireless access.

That brings me on to the need to accelerate the process. Although it is important that there is further debate and that the considerations for manufacturers and those using the facility at the moment need to be carefully taken into account—I think we would all support that—we should not allow that to hold up the development of something that should be giving us not only a commercial edge, but a social edge for people across the whole UK.

There is rural-proofing and the need to accelerate, and I also completely agree with the “use it or share it” approach. There needs to be an acceptance that we must access all the technology as productively as possible. When we consider ambition, it is important to remember that in the United States they freed up the spectrum in 2008. That is how far behind we are. The UK already lags behind countries such as Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Sweden, which have all committed to accelerate the programme. There are important debates to be held, but there is also a need to pick up the pace—I hope the Minister will indicate how that will be achieved—to ensure that we can take advantage of the benefits.

My hon. Friend the Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk also mentioned the need to be ready for the internet of things. That is not something we need to be ready for; it is being deployed here and now, and nowhere is it more important to rural areas than in mobile healthcare. There is an opportunity to give people the chance to improve and restore their health and get the kind of social benefit from the technology that at the moment they cannot access. Until the spectrum issues are solved, people will not, however, be able to do that.

I conclude by repeating one of my hon. Friend’s lines that we should all take away: everyone—the people in every corner of these islands—should be getting the best and fastest possible access and the best possible advantage from new technology.

Digital Economy Bill (Eleventh sitting)

Debate between Drew Hendry and Calum Kerr

Committee Debate: 11th sitting: House of Commons
Tuesday 1st November 2016 Public Bill Committees

[Calum Kerr]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

I will outline the rationale and seek reassurances as to how the Government intend to deal with this matter. We propose that the Bill be amended to ensure that Ofcom has the strongest legal basis to deliver all the options highlighted in its digital communications review. Ofcom is consulting at the moment on how it could introduce legal separation for Openreach within the BT group, but structural separation remains an option.

[Drew Hendry]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the current structure is insufficient to provide an incentive to effectively invest in the network that is required? Ofcom has itself said that the existing ownership allows it to discriminate against competitors.

[Calum Kerr]

I thank my hon. Friend for his comments. At the crux of the debate as to where we go in terms of connectivity is BT, which has a case to answer regarding its investment. Ofcom has a case to answer on being technology agnostic. We have to be bolder and push more ambitiously for fibre. The Minister has told us “fibre means fibre”, so we look forward to seeing progress. Sometimes I think the Government have consumed too much fibre.

It is essential that Ofcom is confident it can enforce separation of Openreach should it conclude it is necessary. It is important to understand the position today. Ofcom considers that it does have the power under the EU framework directive to impose structural separation. The problem with that approach is that Brexit means Brexit. Should Ofcom decide that separation is the right approach, would it take its case to the EU Commission at the time of Brexit? That would be fraught with difficulty, not least as BT might appeal and we would have a long drawn-out process.

It is also worth noting that the telecoms framework under which Ofcom regulates the UK is EU legislation. We need to consider that BT has stated publicly that it believes there is no mechanism for structural separation even within the EU. We are trying to flush out some of the Government’s thinking. The new clause is designed to avoid the potential uncertainty and paralysis should Ofcom want to go down this route. Even if Ofcom does not use this power, having it there will have the added benefit of strengthening its hand in negotiation and enforcement as we all try to improve UK infrastructure.

The SNP’s position is that the digital communications review is following the right lines. Structural separation at this stage is the right approach, but we need to ensure that the final option is available. Given the change in relation to the EU, I would welcome the Government’s comments on how they propose to ensure that is an option.