Covid-19 Update

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Wednesday 27th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) and I share an ambition. We want to unite and level up across the whole UK, and that is the mission of this Government. I am afraid he is totally wrong in what he says about the roll-out of the vaccines. We are making sure that everywhere gets what they need for JCVI groups 1 to 4 by 15 February. That is what we are doing and will continue to do. I am delighted by his conversion to the vaccine. I seem to have read somewhere that he seemed a bit sceptical. There he goes smirking away. It is not a smirking matter. It is absolutely crucial. He should tell his constituents to get a vaccination.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

To lift lockdown, will my right hon. Friend focus exclusively on the progress of vaccinations of those who are most likely to be hospitalised if infected? Is it not the case that mission creep beyond hospitalisations would inevitably lead to the diminution of our sense of urgency to lift the restrictions?

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend is completely right and he gets to the heart of the problem in the pretend policy that has been announced by the Opposition party. If we were to interfere with the JCVI 1 to 9 list, which is intended to target those most vulnerable and those most at risk of dying or of hospitalisation, we would, of course, interpolate it with other people appointed by politicians, taking vaccines away from the more vulnerable groups and, as he has rightly said, delay our ability to move forward out of lockdown. He is spot on.

Covid-19

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Wednesday 6th January 2021 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman, who seems to recapitulate what the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras has already asked me, as though he were still doing his old job. I do not want to repeat all the points that I made. Obviously, we are investing heavily to support jobs and livelihoods throughout the country. On mental health, the right hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the risk of increased suffering caused by the privations of lockdown. That is why we are investing hugely in mental health provision—another £13 billion, plus £18 million in support for our wonderful mental health charities across the country.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Pubs cannot compete with supermarkets for off-sales. Even within a household, people cannot play tennis or golf. Notwithstanding the assault on liberty and livelihoods, why are the regulations pervaded by a pettifogging malice?

[The Prime Minister]

Pettifogging, yes; malicious, no. I am going to have to take the hit here. The intention is to stop the virus, protect the NHS and save lives. To do that, we have to engage in restricting transmission between human beings. I know that my right hon. Friend and other right hon. and hon. Members will find all sorts of reasons to oppose all sorts of restrictions, but in the end, we have to look at the overall budget of risk caused by transmission between members of the human race, and that is what we are trying to restrict.

EU Withdrawal Agreement

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Wednesday 9th December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

We are only halfway through the call list. It would be best if I can manage to get everybody who wants to ask a question on this very important subject in to ask such a question.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Hear, hear!

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I see that I have some agreement from the right hon. Gentleman, who is quite far down the list. I must therefore insist on having questions—just short questions—and not great big statements. We all know what has already happened. Let us just have questions for the Minister, so that we can then just have answers from the Minister.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for suggesting the lucrative opportunity of exporting conflict diamonds, but just how burdensome will the additional paperwork of which he spoke be?

[Michael Gove]

Given that there is very little trade that I am aware of in conflict diamonds from Northern Ireland to Great Britain—if anything, it is an even smaller trade than, for example, endangered species products such as tiger skins—I suspect that the bureaucratic burden will be so small as to be almost naked—sorry, I mean invisible to the naked eye. [Laughter.]

Public Health

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 1st December 2020 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Why will you be able to buy a pint in a sports venue without getting anything to eat, but if you order a pint in a pub, you will have to have a substantial meal? I will leave that hanging as the great existential question of the day.

Suppression in anticipation of vaccination is the reason for the measures before us today, but people have been writing to me for months terrified that a vaccine will be compulsory. I have responded by saying, “Don’t be so absolutely ridiculous—that could never possibly happen. We are a Conservative Government, after all.” Yet now we discover that vaccination may be a passport to the acquisition of your civil liberties, without which you will have all sorts of things that you would otherwise be able to do denied to you. That would be absolutely disproportionate to a virus with a mortality rate verging on 1%. It would equally be a terrible precedent to set for other vaccines and medicines. I therefore hope that we can get away from that.

The way to persuade people to have a vaccine is, of course, to line up the entire Government and their Ministers, and their loved ones, let them take it first, and then get all the luvvies—the icons of popular culture—out on the airwaves singing its praises. To have any kind of suggestion of coercion absolutely feeds the conspiracy theory that we are being cowed and our liberty is being taken away.

[Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is not enough for the Government merely to refrain from coercing people—they also have to pay attention to implicit coercion whereby they turn a blind eye to allowing businesses like airlines and restaurants to refuse to let people in unless they have had the vaccination? The Government have to decide whether they are willing to allow people to discriminate on that basis.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

That would be discrimination. It would be vaccinationism, which we must of course resist.

The other thing that any kind of coercion would do is to set the seal on this Government’s reputation as the most authoritarian since the Commonwealth of the 1650s; but it is as nothing to the enthusiasm that we have seen from the Opposition Front Bench for even more coercive and restrictive measures.

Covid-19: Winter Plan

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Monday 23rd November 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

With great respect to the hon. Gentleman, perhaps that was one of the answers I gave that was mysteriously truncated in the course of my giving it. I think I said pretty clearly that the criteria we would use to decide who went into which tier would be case detection rates in all groups, case detection rates in the over-60s, the rate at which cases are rising or falling, positivity rates, and pressure on the NHS. Those are some of the criteria that we will use.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

“He loved Big Brother.” The last ruler that told us how we may or may not celebrate Christmas was Oliver Cromwell. It didn’t well, did it?

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend is completely right in his basic instincts, which I share, and his fundamental libertarian yearnings, which I also share. I love Christmas; I love a big get-together. The trouble is that the people of this country can see that there is a real risk that if we blow it with a big, blowout at Christmas, we will pay for it in the new year. They want a cautious and balanced approach, and that is what we will deliver for the whole UK.

Covid-19 Update

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Monday 12th October 2020 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I repeat the point that I have made about the self-employed: £13.5 billion has been given to support them, and where there is more we can do, we will obviously look at it. The hon. Lady makes an interesting point about whether a local approach would have been better throughout this than a national approach. All the evidence is that we need both. That is what we have supplied, and that is what we will continue to supply. That is why we are expanding our support for the local approach. The experience of other countries shows that we need a national approach, because otherwise the local test and trace operations simply do not join up. Plenty of countries have had that experience, and that is why we are taking an approach that joins up local test and trace with national test and trace.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

What does the Prime Minister make of the special envoy’s statement that

“We in the World Health Organisation do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus”?

[The Prime Minister]

I totally agree with what David Nabarro had to say—I think he is completely right. I think that the best way to control this virus is common-sensical restrictions on person-to-person contact, because it is that person-to-person contact that spreads the virus. That is what we all need to do.

Oral Answers to Questions

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 1st October 2020 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

What recent discussions the Government have had with the devolved Administrations on tackling the covid-19 outbreak.

[The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister for the Cabinet Office (Michael Gove)]

We and the devolved Administrations recently published a joint statement showing our commitment to work together to protect the health of our citizens, to protect our communities, and to enhance our economic recovery. Ministers from all the devolved Administrations attended Cobra on 22 September following bilateral discussions with the Prime Minister the day before. Of course I have regular meetings with the First Ministers of all the Administrations.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

If the effort against covid is a war, then the first principles are the selection and maintenance of the aim. In March, the aim was to flatten the curve and protect the NHS. Has it changed?

[Michael Gove]

No. My right hon. Friend is absolutely right, as a distinguished Territorial Army officer as well as a very successful former Defence Minister. Yes, our aim is to flatten the curve, to protect the NHS and to save lives.

EU Exit: End of Transition Period

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Wednesday 23rd September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. Some of that detail has already been published, but there is more that depends on the negotiations. If he gets the companies in his constituency with particular concerns to get in touch with me directly, I will work with him to provide them with the information we have.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

The markets Bill does not break any law, does it?

[Michael Gove]

This Government believe entirely in the rule of law.

United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

2nd reading & 2nd reading: House of Commons & Money resolution & Money resolution: House of Commons & Programme motion & Programme motion: House of Commons
Monday 14th September 2020 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

The Prime Minister has warned us that a threat has been made to interpret the agreement in such a way as to exclude the possibility of the people of Northern Ireland having access to goods from the rest of the United Kingdom—a threat that clearly shows that those who have made it have abandoned any notion of their binding obligation to negotiate in good faith and make best endeavours to secure an agreement. The Government would be utterly negligent if they were not to take precautions to prevent that from arising; it would be outrageous.

The Chairman of the Justice Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Bromley and Chislehurst (Sir Robert Neill), has said that the powers that the Government envisage arming themselves with should be used in only the most extreme circumstances. I put it to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, that breaking up the economic integrity of the United Kingdom is just such a circumstance. This Bill is a precaution. It is a deterrent. The best way to prevent ourselves from being in the position of needing these powers is to arm ourselves with them.

There is a principle in international law, which is that no country can be bound by an obligation that it made when that obligation is interpreted in such a way as to undermine the very integrity of that country. That is a principle of international law, and there is only one court that can arbitrate in those circumstances. That is the court of international opinion, and the world can see exactly what is going on. The world has had its own dealings with the European Union and its negotiations. It has seen its infractions of the World Trade Organisation. It has seen what it has done over the European convention on human rights, and it knows what is going on.

There are those who have said that there is somehow a comparison to be made between the powers that we envisage in this Bill and what China is doing in Hong Kong. That is such a grotesque comparison as to undermine any argument that they might have.

Civil Service Appointments

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 30th June 2020 Commons Chamber

[Michael Gove]

It may surprise the hon. Gentleman, but, no, I do not. Of course, we benefit from impartial and authoritative advice, but, ultimately, Ministers decide. It is certainly the case that, in the Scottish Government, I know that the excellent civil servants there provide robust challenge, but, just occasionally, Ministers of the Scottish Government sometimes take a different view.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

You would think that nothing had changed since the fall of Thomas Cromwell. Has my right hon. Friend read Hilary Mantel’s “The Mirror and the Light”? It is not really like that, is it?

[Michael Gove]

I have not had the opportunity to read Ms Mantel’s latest novel, but I hope to have the opportunity to do so over the summer. My right hon. Friend is absolutely right to point out that, historically, government has been carried on by a mixture of those who are dedicated public servants in the civil service and outside appointees of a political hue.