Vaccination Strategy

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Wednesday 12th January 2022 Commons Chamber

[Maggie Throup]

I reassure the right hon. Gentleman that we are doing what we can to ensure that people get vaccinated. Some of the stats speak for themselves: people are eight times more likely to be hospitalised if they are unvaccinated and more than 60% of those in ICU are unvaccinated. We are not a nation that forces people to do things unnecessarily. The behavioural insights team across Government has been looking at different ways to get those who have not come forward yet to get their jab and at the pros and cons of different ways of doing that. At the moment, I think we have the right approach, which is explaining why it is important for them to come forward to get a jab.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

The question of my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates) was about whether there was a reassessment of the strategy on the basis of what we know now about omicron that we did not when the strategy was set out. Will the Minister answer that, particularly in respect of the policy of sacking NHS staff who are not vaccinated, given that we know that the rationale has disappeared because it does not stop people from catching it or from infecting others?

[Maggie Throup]

My right hon. Friend makes a very good point, but I go back to the MHRA, which is globally recognised as one of the best regulators and has advised that,

“the benefits of vaccination still outweigh any risk in most individuals.”

With regards to myocarditis, to which I think he was referring as well, it is greater in those children who have been infected with covid than in those who have been jabbed. I must stress, however, that instances of both those circumstances are extremely rare. The JCVI continually reviews all the data.

Public Health

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 14th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

On a typical winter’s day, between 200 and 350 people will die of flu. Do we hide behind our masks? Do we lurk at home, working from home? Do we demand that people provide their bona fides before going to a venue? Do we require people to be vaccinated as a condition of keeping their jobs?

The question whether the measures before the House today are proportionate comes down to a matter of opinion. Do we take seriously some of the extraordinary extrapolations that we have been given, particularly given the previous record? The fact is that those are things that might take place, and we have to balance them against the known costs and damage to enterprise, economy and society.

In the end, it comes down to a matter of opinion—a matter of our prejudice. Typically, we are capable of organising our lives and making those decisions for ourselves. We decide what our risk appetite is and what we are or are not prepared to encounter. Notwithstanding the carnage on our roads, which is certainly killing more people than covid at the moment, some of us still decide to drive. It is a matter of opinion.

It comes down to letting loose the dogs of war—getting the fear factor into it and getting the officials, the members of SAGE, Independent SAGE and SPI-M and all those who speak in their private capacity out there twisting the fear lever. What about the Health Protection Agency? What Stalinist minds thought up that nomenclature? Get them out there, twisting the fear button, and by and large you will get the reaction that you want: people will crave more enforcement and fiercer measures to protect them from the great danger that is out there. Let hospitality be just collateral damage—let the industry endure the deluge of cancellations at what should be its most productive time. That is the situation that we have delivered.

The Government, having administered this Ministry of fear, are absolutely complicit with their officials and organisations who have designed and delivered it. In doing so, they have abandoned any principle of social democracy or liberal democracy, absolutely beyond anything that we have endured in recent living memory, in the history of this pandemic. As a consequence, having abandoned what might have been their ideology, they are rudderless and so much more at risk of the opinions and predictions of the advisers to whom they are in hock.

Covid-19 Update

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Monday 6th December 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

The NHS and social care has £5.4 billion of extra funding over the second half of this financial year. A lot of that funding is being deployed to create extra capacity, especially with work on discharges between the NHS and the social care sector, because people can be clinically ready to be discharged, but the care packages have not always been easily available.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

How many of those who have tested positive in the UK are ill?

[Sajid Javid]

The number of confirmed cases in the UK is 336. By definition, they are all infected. Some may be asymptomatic and others will be feeling ill. As far as I am aware, none of them has so far been hospitalised.

Public Health

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 30th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Maggie Throup]

In September, the Government set out their autumn and winter plan for fighting the virus, which could be implemented to ensure that the NHS is not overwhelmed. Although we are not implementing the entirety of the plan now, we are taking steps to respond to a potentially potent mutation of the virus. We have taken great steps in our fight against the virus, having delivered nearly 115 million vaccine doses so far, and more every day, with almost 18 million people having also received their booster jab, including me.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Will the Minister deprecate those public appointees who, notwithstanding the clear proportionate advice of the chief scientific adviser, have been on the airwaves telling people that they should not socialise, to the huge detriment of people’s wellbeing and of an industry struggling to recover from earlier lockdowns?

[Maggie Throup]

I am sure the people my right hon. Friend is referring to will have heard him loud and clear. We all enjoy socialising but, as he will appreciate, we are in a difficult situation. However, we also have personal responsibility.

We are confronted with an emerging threat, which is familiar but not yet well known. The measures that we are putting in place are proportionate, precautionary and balanced, and are being made in response to the specific threat.

Late last week, the challenge arising from the latest covid-19 threat from the variant of concern known as omicron emerged. Public health officials in South Africa shared information on the omicron variant and it was identified as a coronavirus variant of concern. Thanks to our world-leading genomic sequencing experts at the UK Health Security Agency, we were able to identify that some cases of the new variant are present in this country. So far, we have identified 14 cases in the UK and, unfortunately, we expect to find more in the coming days.

--- Later in debate ---

[Sir Graham Brady]

I am grateful to my medically qualified right hon. Friend for that intervention. He is of course right that that is unlikely. There would have to be some evidence of a very different kind of variant of covid for it to pose any kind of threat of that sort. He is also right to point out that when we first went into a lockdown, it was intended to protect the NHS for long enough for us to increase capacity in the service for a three-week period. The first lockdown then spread into three months. That is the most important thing the House should be guarding against: the mission creep that allows Governments simply to introduce restrictions and further restrictions, and then extend them, getting into the habit of regulating what we do. That is my most important concern of all.

In the summer of 2020, the Prime Minister said that it was time to move on and time to start to trust people to make decisions for themselves. I rejoiced at that and thought what a wonderful thing it was that we were moving to a point where we would advise people, inform people and make sure they had the best evidence to make decisions in their own lives. Now, however, we see the first instinct of the Government when we do not even have any evidence that the omicron variant is worse in its effects. There is some suggestion from South Africa that it might be less severe, but the Government’s first instinct is to introduce further compulsory measures and regulations relating to self-isolation and to face coverings in some settings but only until 20 December, plus measures that affect the travel industry, particularly the move back to PCR tests on day two.

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

We are about to have another pingdemic as we approach Christmas, to the huge disadvantage of enterprises across the country. It fundamentally undermines the other main effort of the Government, which is to increase vaccinations. One of the advantages of being vaccinated is not having to self-isolate if in the company of someone who is infected. If that is taken away, one of the incentives—the principal incentive—to get vaccinated is removed.

[Sir Graham Brady]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. It is a very serious concern that we might be entering a world where we lurch from one set of restrictions to another, where no business and no individual can get used to the idea of the freedoms they are able to exercise or what restrictions might be in force at the time.

What really concerns me—I think we all know and recognise this—is that we are dealing no longer with a pandemic, but with an endemic virus that will be with us for many, many years and probably forever in some form. Further variants will emerge. They might do so every couple of months or every year. We tend to have a new flu strain on an annual basis and some are much worse than others. But surely, we need to get back to an assumption that people will make decisions for themselves and have control over their own lives. We cannot move, as we appear to have done, to an environment in which the Government simply assume they can instruct us whenever there is the first small evidence from anywhere in the world of a new strain that might behave in a different way, and new and potentially swingeing public health measures are put in place. I ask Ministers to consider the implications of that and for looking at other diseases. Will we start to treat other diseases and viruses in the same way, assuming the best thing to do is to compel people and instruct them on what actions they need to take?

Covid-19 Update

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Monday 29th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

That is an important point and the hon. Lady is right to raise it. We estimate that 5 million people across the UK have not even taken up the offer of their first dose of the vaccine, putting themselves and their loved ones at great risk. A lot of work has been done over the past few months and it is bearing results: we are seeing ever more people coming forward, especially in the past few weeks. Indeed, many came forward this weekend, perhaps out of concern about the new variant. A lot of work is being done with community leaders, and there is an existing communications campaign but a new one will start imminently.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Over the last few months there has been a useful control experiment on face coverings, given the different policies pursued in Scotland and England. What estimate has the Secretary of State made of the result? It is mumbo-jumbo, isn’t it?

[Sajid Javid]

If my right hon. Friend is suggesting that there are mixed views on the efficacy of face coverings in helping to fight the pandemic he would be right, but I would point him to UK work by Public Health England—published, if I remember correctly, last month—referring to a number of reports setting out how in certain settings face coverings could help.

Covid-19 Update

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Monday 15th November 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

I know the right hon. Gentleman likes to create problems where they do not exist, but we should not always let him get away with it. There is no problem with the app. If he had listened to me carefully, he would know as well as anyone that proof of a third jab, whether a booster or as part of a person’s primary dose, is not necessary for UK domestic purposes. As I said earlier, we fully understand and recognise that it might be needed for international travel or other international purposes, which is why we will do something about it.

The right hon. Gentleman should not undermine confidence in the app. He called it a problem with the app, but there is no such thing.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

If a member of NHS staff has previously had an episode of myocarditis and is anxious about its recurrence, would that be sufficient ground for an exemption from vaccination?

[Sajid Javid]

That would be a decision for clinicians.

Covid-19: Government Response

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Thursday 21st October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Maggie Throup]

The hon. Lady raises the issue of the differential uptake in different age groups. This is why the Government and the NHS have been keen to reach out to different age groups through different mechanisms, such as using shopping centres, football stadiums and pop-up sites. That will be continuing as we move forward in the coming weeks and months.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

When we are increasingly concerned about mental health, the mask the Minister was wearing only moments ago denies us the fellowship and reassurance of her friendly facial expression, but the material of which it is composed has gaps that are 5,000 times bigger than the virus, does it not?

[Maggie Throup]

Like my right hon. Friend, I look forward to the time when we do not need to wear face coverings, because I love to see everybody’s smiling faces. However, we need to make sure that we all get jabbed, so that we can get to that stage.

Coronavirus Act 2020 (Review of Temporary Provisions) (No. 3)

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Martyn Day]

I should point that they are not ID cards but vaccine certificates. As I have said, we respect the differences, and although we welcome a four-nations approach we will move differently if things move at different paces.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

On the hon. Gentleman’s stricture about the mask mandate— the requirement on which he wishes us to follow Scotland—the wearing of masks does not seem to have reduced the rate of infection in Scotland, which is somewhat higher than it is in England, does it?

[Martyn Day]

I am an enthusiastic mask wearer for one simple reason that I think helps us all: it sends a very strong message to people that the virus has not gone away. I therefore encourage people to wear a mask, which also has benefits in the reduction of transmission.

The UK Government must be prepared to support people financially should greater restrictions need to be reintroduced this winter if conditions deteriorate. Failing that, they must provide the powers to the devolved Governments to do so themselves.

We in the SNP continue to have serious concerns about the lack of parliamentary scrutiny of the powers in the UK Government’s Coronavirus Act 2020, and we have raised those concerns on several occasions from Second Reading onwards. It is important that Parliament has its say, especially now, as the pressure of the pandemic is easing. As I have said in previous debates, the reviews of the temporary provisions must not be rubber-stamping exercises; they must provide meaningful scrutiny, protect human rights and promote public health.

It is important that Parliament has its say on the regulations in place to tackle the biggest health emergency of our lifetimes. The Government are under huge pressure, but their decisions need the insight and legitimacy of Parliament. By giving Parliament the ability to scrutinise the schedules and measures individually, we could have gone a long way towards that aim. It is unacceptable that Parliament does not have that ability. For example, the SNP supports the repeal of schedule 21, which contains broad police detention powers. Scottish police have not used schedule 21 powers in Scotland and alternative laws could be used in lieu of the schedule.

We are not out of the pandemic yet; it will be with us for some time to come and the global threats of new variants will be with us until the world is vaccinated. We have to get this right. When I last spoke on the temporary provisions six months ago, I stated that

“more needs to be done to restore public trust in the handling of issues such as covid contracts and in the security of powers contained in the Act.”—[Official Report, 25 March 2021; Vol. 691, c. 1125.]

I fear very much that the Government are not learning lessons fast enough, particularly in respect of contracts and vaccinations.

The case of Valneva in West Lothian is a clear example. Yesterday, that vaccine company which is developing the only inactivated covid-19 vaccine in clinical development in Europe, and manufacturing that vaccine in Scotland, published positive data from its phase 3 clinical trial. I welcome the fact that the Health and Social Care Secretary has changed his views since incorrectly telling the House that Valneva’s vaccine would not get approval from the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency. We know that, if approved, Valneva will be the only inactivated, adjuvanted whole virus vaccine against covid-19 in the UK—a fantastic innovation, particularly for those who have been waiting for an inactivated vaccine. I want to know when it might be available for our constituents. I hope the Secretary of State will join me in welcoming this news, made possible by support from the Department of Health and Social Care and the National Institute for Health Research, and recognise that it paves the way towards initial approval from the MHRA.

Finally, while maintaining health policies for the remainder of the pandemic is sensible, this must be done with the scrutiny of Parliament and the confidence of the public.

--- Later in debate ---

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

The question is Motion No. 4 as on the Order Paper. As many as are of that opinion, say Aye. [Hon. Members: “Aye.”] Of the contrary, No. [Interruption.] Could I have the Noes again?

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

No!

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am afraid I fear the mood of the House is not to have a vote. The right hon. Gentleman would have to rustle up a few more people to really get the sense that we required a vote—

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

The just shall live by faith.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am sure they will. The Ayes have it.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the temporary provisions of the Coronavirus Act 2020 should not yet expire.

Covid-19: Vaccination of Children

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 21st September 2021 Westminster Hall

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who made so many important points. I also appreciate and thank my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Miriam Cates) for leading on the debate; I know many people right across the country are grateful for it, because this is an area of immense concern as their children are being vaccinated or not, as the case may be.

The country has gone through a difficult time over a long period. Who would have thought in March last year that we would be in this position now, debating whether 12-year-olds would be vaccinated to deal with this disease? At the beginning, there was very little certainty or scientific understanding of what we were facing. The scientific understanding has carried on apace; there has been a huge global effort to increase it, and on the medical side there has been a huge advance in how we treat people.

Covid is far less dangerous now than it was at the beginning, and we need to be clear about that, including when we look at the Government’s statistics on how deaths and other concerns are presented. To this day, they still show the overall death rate as including those deaths in the first and second waves. That makes us believe that we have not rolled out an effective vaccines programme and that doctors and people in hospitals are not far more effective at treating the disease itself. We are in a far better position, and that must be more clearly understood.

Initially, in January this year and December last year, the vaccine roll-out was pitched as protecting the most vulnerable: those who are old and those who have particular health challenges. Then, before we knew it, the ages were coming down and down. We got to age 18, and at the same time it was not a single vaccination, but a double vaccination that would give people the necessary protection. Now we are in the position of giving a booster vaccination to people in the near future. Initially it is being proposed for the over-50s, but will that come down as well?

The point I am making is that we have not been given any certainty over what the Government and their advisers deem to be success. It seems as though, because the system has not been given clarity about what success is, it carries on and on and the next group, the next group and the next group receive the vaccination. However, we know that in the first and second waves the connection between transmission, hospitalisation and death was strong. We know from Government data that, in the third wave, the connection between transmission, hospitalisation and death is fundamentally broken; it is nothing compared with what it was at the beginning. Our approach to covid therefore ought to reflect those facts.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

I recall the pervasive disapproval that attached to my family when my children were at school and it became apparent that my wife was refusing to use the powerful chemical solution for the control of nits. When we come to schools being collectively vaccinated, the decision of some parents or children not to be vaccinated will undoubtedly be a matter of common knowledge—there is certainly the danger of that. Does my hon. Friend share my concern that it will be difficult to prevent that general disapproval and all that may flow from it from being attached to parents or children who have decided not to be vaccinated?

[Chris Green]

My right hon. Friend makes exactly the right point. In school settings, it will be incredibly difficult to do this, and it will be variable. It will depend on the culture of the school and the school leadership. Some schools will be open and objective, and will say, “We will respect you, the family, for the decisions you make on behalf of your family,” but I am pretty certain that other schools will have a very difficult and challenging atmosphere for those 12-year-old children and their families if they do not comply.

I think that is a very dangerous route for us to go down and will cause so much pressure. That leads on to an immensely important point. Traditionally in the United Kingdom, our approach to vaccinations has been one of non-compulsion. Our vaccination take-up across the board has been very high because people trust the vaccination programme and that these things, which we can take voluntarily, are there for our own good. We do not need coercion to take them; they are there for our good so we will take them. What repercussions will we face in years to come now that there is a toxification due to the imposition of these vaccines?

What, furthermore, do we see? We see that the first and second waves had a huge impact on us, but the third wave is far less impactful. All our vaccines are effective against all variants of concern. We see compulsory vaccination in the care sector, no doubt shortly to be rolled out into the national health service, and therefore after that to other sectors in society. We see the establishment of the idea of vaccine IDs and domestic ID cards. There is a pause at the moment in England, but those causes are being advanced in Scotland and Wales. In many ways, we can objectively say that we are almost through the worst of the pandemic, yet the more draconian or authoritarian measures are being introduced at this stage. It is perverse.

Covid-19 Update

Desmond Swayne Excerpts

Tuesday 14th September 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

Of course no one should be left behind, wherever they are in the UK. The differential take-up of the vaccine can be based on a number of factors—for example, there is definitely a difference in age groups. Working with the NHS, we are trying to tailor our message to convince people about the benefits of the vaccine to those respective age groups, and we also try to do that on a localised basis. If the right hon. Lady has any particular suggestions about Hull, we would be more than happy to listen to her.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

The Secretary of State retains all the powers of the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, which were used to take away our liberties without prior parliamentary authority. Will he undertake to review that and to give us a new public health Act?