Report of the Iraq Inquiry

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 6th July 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

As ever on these matters, my hon. Friend speaks with great clarity. He is right to say that this is a moment for deep reflection. He is also right to say that as we think of our armed service personnel and those who serve, we should be proud of what they did. We should be proud of their bravery and their courage. They were obeying the command of this House, and serving in the way in which we would expect them to. My hon. Friend is right to think of it like that. He is also right to say that we must ensure that the promises of the armed services covenant are kept in reality as well as on paper.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

May I say to the Prime Minister that we should remember that the real responsibility for the murder and killing of so many Iraqi civilians lies with Saddam Hussein, al-Qaeda and its offshoots, and, of course, Isis? May I also say this to him? Three main complaints were made about Tony Blair and the Government’s decision at the time. The first was that he misled Parliament, or lied to Parliament. The Prime Minister has said that that has not been found in the Chilcot report, but perhaps he would like to confirm that again. The second was that intelligence had been doctored, and, as I understand it from my quick reading of the report, that has not been found either. The third was that the war had been illegal. Of course, Chilcot is not deciding on that, but we do not know that he makes very clear in his report that it relied on evidence from the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith, that it was legal to go to war at that point.

[The Prime Minister]

I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman will have to read the report in order to answer those questions in full, but, in shorthand, let me say this. First, the report makes clear that No. 10 and the Prime Minister did not wrongly alter the dossier that was produced. I think that there are some comments about how the report did not necessarily reflect all the things that were in other papers from the Joint Intelligence Committee, but that is a different point.

On the issue of whether the war was legal or illegal, Chilcot does not take a stand. Perhaps I will read out later exactly what he says, but he says that there was legal advice, that the legal advice made a legal case for a war, and that that is how the Government proceeded. However, he is not saying that he is taking a position.

On the issue of misleading Parliament, there is nothing in the Chilcot report that I can see that points to deliberate deceit, but there were clearly occasions when more information, or better information, could have been presented. I think that the report must be read carefully, but those are my shorthand answers to the hon. Gentleman’s questions.

European Council

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 21st March 2016 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and I think that more and more countries can now see that that is the right approach.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

If fighting resumes in Syria, what is plan B?

Syria

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Thursday 26th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am very grateful for my hon. Friend’s support. It is right to have, as I have set out, an ISIL-first strategy. I think what we are seeing from others involved in this process is a growing understanding that the true enemy is ISIL. If we look at what happened with the hideous bombing in Ankara, which has now been laid firmly at the door of ISIL, we will see that there is a growing understanding from Turkey’s leaders that ISIL is an enormous threat to their country—which it is.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

It might have been helpful if the Prime Minister had said more about how robust the intelligence is in support of some of the facts he has provided today, particularly with regard to the 70,000 Syrian fighters because the issue of ground forces, which has been raised by other Members, is key, and today’s statement was weak in that regard. I have asked him this question twice before: what efforts is he continuing to make to persuade the Iraqi Government to do more to arm and support the Sunnis in Iraq, because they will be crucial to defeating ISIL?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Prime Minister al-Abadi is a great improvement on his predecessor in wanting a genuinely plural society in Iraq, but we need more progress on hiring Sunnis—and indeed Kurds—into the Iraqi security forces, so that there are troops who will be trusted by local people when they clear and hold territory that is occupied by Sunni tribes. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about that. We are doing everything we can. We already have forces training the Iraqi security forces, at their request, on countering improvised explosive devices; I am sure they would like us to do more. We will keep looking at their requests and see what more we can do. The hon. Gentleman is completely right about that.

On the robustness of the intelligence case regarding the Free Syrian Army, as I have said, that is all cleared through the authorities in a way that never existed properly before the Iraq war. Those changes were put in place. If the House wants, through its Select Committees, to invite some of those senior officials to give detailed evidence, I am very happy for that to happen. In no way do I want to be accused of inventing or overstating intelligence information; I am trying to understate everything. The only thing I am absolutely clear about is that we face a threat and we should deal with it.

Tunisia, and European Council

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 29th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We need to build an Iraq where its Prime Minister is clearly working for Sunnis as well as Shi’as and Kurds, but we also need Sunni Muslims in Iraq to rise up and reject ISIL. Without that, it will always be more difficult to take that cancer out of the country.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

May I press the Prime Minister on a question I asked him a couple of weeks ago about the Sunnis and Sunni tribes in Iraq? The fact is that the Iraqi Government are not reaching out to them or arming them. Without that, we are not going to see the Sunni tribes and the Sunnis taking on ISIL. What is the Prime Minister, along with European partners, doing to ensure we put pressure on the Iraqi Government to do that and ensure that the Sunnis are involved?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman asks absolutely the right question. I have personally raised this issue with President Abadi, including at the G7 summit in southern Germany, and will continue to do so. We have to encourage him to be brave in reaching out from his Shi’a base. We should also work with Sunni regimes in the area that themselves can work with the Sunni tribes to encourage them to accept the offer of an inclusive Iraqi Government and to reject ISIL.

G7

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 10th June 2015 Commons Chamber

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

When the Defence Committee went to Iraq at the end of last year, it was clear that one of the biggest obstacles to defeating ISIL was the lack of involvement of the Sunni tribes and Sunni people, and that is obviously down to the Iraqi Government. I welcome the support we are giving to the Iraqi Government, but what is the strategy of the Prime Minister and the other leaders of the G7 to bring on board the Sunnis and get the Iraqi Government to change their position, because that is essential in order for us to defeat ISIL?

[The Prime Minister]

The hon. Gentleman’s analysis of the situation is absolutely spot on. We will not succeed in Iraq unless the Iraqi Government and the Iraqi security forces have representation from both Sunni and Shi’a, so our strategy is not to try to do things for the Iraqi Government but to encourage the Iraqi Government to do them and say, “We’ll work alongside you.” In everything we do, we should be encouraging them to reach out to the Sunni tribes, because in the end their Government will succeed only if they represent all the people.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 17th December 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

There are two vital steps that we can take. The first is to go on backing the Help to Buy scheme, which has helped thousands of people in our country—I think over 70,000 people now. It enables people who are working hard, who earn a decent salary and who can afford the mortgage payments to take out that mortgage and buy that home because they do not need such a big deposit. That is the first thing we should do, and we shall continue with that.

The second, as I announced on Monday, is that we want to build starter homes that are 20% below the market price. These should be homes not for rent, but that young people can buy. They will be reserved for people under the age of 40. Again, this is for people who work hard, and who want to get on and do the right thing for themselves and their families. Under a Conservative Government, they will have homes they can buy.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

I was contacted at the weekend by a constituent who told me that a fall left his 78-year-old mother bleeding on the kitchen floor and that it took almost an hour and a half for the ambulance to attend. Is that not indicative of the health service under this Government? What is the Prime Minister going to do to ensure that pressures on ambulance services are eased?

[The Prime Minister]

What is indicative of the NHS under this Government is the fact that there are 1,700 more paramedics and 200 more ambulances than when we came to power. The reason for that is we did not listen to the Labour party, which said that it was irresponsible to increase health spending; instead, we put £12.7 billion into the NHS. Where any ambulance trust falls down, that is a matter of serious regret and should be looked into very carefully. I will look into this case, as I would with any other.

G20

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 17th November 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

There were a number of discussions around the G20. I talked to President Obama about this issue and at some length with Prime Minister Abbott. I think there is a real commitment to recognise that we are in a fight that affects so many countries. Young people travelling from so many of our countries have been radicalised into fighting in this way, and we must do everything we can to cut off the sources of finance. That means action at the UN, which we will continue to take, but if we consider further action is necessary, we should take it.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

In order to compete better globally, we need to do something about our productivity problems—a subject to which my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition referred earlier. How does having so many people on low pay and in insecure jobs with falling living standards address that productivity problem?

[The Prime Minister]

We first need to recognise that this year has seen the largest fall in unemployment in Britain since records began, and it is a complete fiction to say that all those jobs are low paid. That is not the case. A lot of those jobs are in more skilled professions where the pay levels are higher. On productivity, it is of course an important challenge for the UK, but I would say that one hopeful sign is that the increase in business investment—a key component of GDP—has rapidly increased this year and it can lead to an increase in productivity.

EU Council, Security and Middle East

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 1st September 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

First, we support the action the Americans have taken to assist the Iraqi authorities and Kurdish authorities in beating back ISIL; that has been the right approach. We have also assisted in our own way through the humanitarian aid we have delivered and the intelligence and other support that we have given to the Americans. That is the position.

On Ukraine, I do not think that the approach my hon. Friend suggests is the right one. We should be demonstrating that NATO stands behind all its members, as I have just said. We should be demonstrating that NATO has important partnerships with countries such as Ukraine. Indeed, that should not stop us having exercises in Ukraine, as we will do later this year. However, I do not believe that the solution to the problems in Ukraine is a military solution. We want a de-escalation of the military situation and an escalation of the political solution, recognising that, at heart, the Ukrainian people must be able to choose their future. It is that that Russia is trying to deny.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

When did the Prime Minister realise that the Iraqi army could not deal with ISIL, and does he believe the Iraqi army will be in any position soon to defeat ISIL?

[The Prime Minister]

The weakness of the Iraqi army was based not on its equipment or even on its training, but on the fact that it was seen as a force that represented only one part of Iraq. That demonstrates the importance of focusing on politics as well as on military issues. What is required—I think the Iraqi army will not succeed until this happens—is a Government of Iraq who represent all of Iraq, and Iraqi security forces that can make the same claim.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 26th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am happy to join my hon. Friend in paying tribute to those people, who achieved so much through their run and by raising and highlighting the importance of this issue. Organisations such as Combat Stress do an extraordinary job in our country. We must face up to the fact that because of the conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan, there will be many more people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder who will need our help and support not just this year and next year, but long into the future. That is why I think that the Chancellor’s decision to take the money from the LIBOR fines and use it to back military charities, including those that deal with this issue, is very far-sighted.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

Q3. The 25th anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster is less than three weeks away and the fresh inquests are due to start. Does the Prime Minister agree that it is a scandal that some police officers who were on duty on the day of the disaster are refusing to co-operate with the investigation, and may I ask what he will do to stop such a situation happening again?

[The Prime Minister]

An important anniversary is coming up. As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Independent Police Complaints Commission is investigating all these complaints, and in addition the families can make complaints to the Investigatory Powers Tribunal. The Home Secretary has written to all police forces asking them to ensure they make available all the information they hold on Hillsborough, and in my view that should include police officers co-operating with this vital inquiry.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 18th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise this issue. I was very impressed when I went to Norfolk—to Wells-next-the-Sea—to see the amazing contribution made by not only the emergency services, but, as he said, local newspapers in highlighting this issue and helping to prepare people for what was to come, as well as the flood co-ordinators and the people who work voluntarily to help our communities. I was particularly impressed by what I saw the lifeboats had done. An enormous wave swept through their station but, even with that, they were able to get out there and help people. As he says, because we have put money into flood defences, we protected a lot more homes that otherwise would have been affected, but the work needs to continue.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

Q8. Ministers have admitted to me that there are delays in completing personal independence payment claims. My constituent, Kathy, who is suffering from cancer, made her claim in August, but a decision is still to be made. She had a home appointment yesterday with an Atos assessor, but they did not turn up. Why is the Prime Minister allowing cancer patients to suffer because of the incompetence of his Government?

[The Prime Minister]

I am very happy to look at the individual case that the hon. Gentleman raises. It is worth noting that Atos worked under the last Government, in which he served. I am happy to look at the individual case to see what can be done.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 6th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 6 March.

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others and in addition to my duties in this House I shall have further such meetings later today.

[Derek Twigg]

More than 2,500 households in Halton are affected by the bedroom tax. The chief executive of the National Housing Federation said this week:

“The bedroom tax is ill-thought and unfair as thousands of disabled people will have no choice but to cut back further on food and other expenses in order to stay in their…homes.”

Will the Prime Minister now drop this callous policy?

[The Prime Minister]

Let us be absolutely clear that this is not a tax. Let me explain to the Labour party that a tax is when someone earns some money and the Government take some of that money away from them—that is a tax. Only Labour could call a benefit reform a tax increase. Let me be clear to the hon. Gentleman: pensioners are exempt, people with severely disabled children are exempt and people who need round-the-clock care are exempt. Those categories of people are all exempt, but there is a basic issue of fairness. How can it be fair that people on housing benefit in private rented accommodation do not get a spare room subsidy, whereas people in social housing do? That is not fair and we are putting that right.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 28th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My right hon. Friend makes an important point about access to justice, but one of the key things that the Leveson inquiry is trying to get to the bottom of is: how can we have a strong and independent regulatory system, so that we do not have to wait for the wheels of the criminal justice system or the libel system to work? People should be able to rely on a good regulatory system as well in order to get the redress they want, whether prominent apologies, fines for newspapers or the other things that are clearly so necessary.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

Q9. The Department for Education is proposing to close its Runcorn site, with the loss of at least 220 jobs. It is in the 27th most-deprived borough in the country. How will that help with unemployment and social deprivation in my constituency? It is a pity that the Education Secretary has refused to meet me to discuss this matter.

[The Prime Minister]

I know that the hon. Gentleman has met the permanent secretary at the Department for Education to discuss the matter, and I will certainly discuss it with the Secretary of State as well. Of course, there will be consultation with affected staff and other local MPs, but let me make this important point: we all know that we have to try and find savings in departmental overhead budgets in order to maximise the money going into the schools. The Government have managed to maintain the per-pupil funding, and I am sure that hon. Members who think about it will consider that the most important thing for our schools, our children and our education system.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am looking very carefully at these issues, but I have to say that we have already taken the most important step, which is to set the renewables obligation certificates—the ROCs—out into the future, so that investors know that they can invest, for instance in offshore wind, knowing what the return is going to be. There will be more detail, of course, when we produce the Energy Bill later in this year.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

Q15. May I refer the Prime Minister to the Hansard record from 23 May 2012? The right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds) asked him the following:“Will the Prime Minister give an undertaking that he will not succumb to the diktat from the European Court of Human Rights in relation to prisoners voting”.His reply was:“The short answer to that is yes.”—[Official Report, 23 May 2012; Vol. 545, c. 1127.]Will he confirm that that is still his position? I hope that it is. Will he tell us how he is going to get around breaking European law?

[The Prime Minister]

I can absolutely give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. The House of Commons has voted against prisoners having the vote. I do not want prisoners to have the vote, and they should not get the vote—I am very clear about that. If it helps to have another vote in Parliament on another resolution to make it absolutely clear and help put the legal position beyond doubt, I am happy to do that. But no one should be in any doubt: prisoners are not getting the vote under this Government.

Hillsborough

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 12th September 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question. Everybody has to study the report and think about the consequences of what they did. What is new in the report is that it is not just about what the newspapers, particularly The Sun, did, but about where the information came from, how it was gleaned and the rest of it. People will want to consider that carefully before working out what to do next.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

I have several constituents who lost loved ones, and I was in the stadium on the day, so may I thank the Prime Minister and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition for the tone of their statements and their apologies? We should also recognise the work of the previous Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), and the current Home Secretary, who ensured that the documents were actually delivered. What we have heard is shocking—I have had a brief glimpse at the report—but it is equally shocking that on almost every single thing that the family challenged, whether on the inquest, the 3.15 cut-off point, the post mortems or the police conspiracy, they have been proved right. That is a scandal. I welcome the fact that there will be a debate, but may we also be kept up to date on what is happening as a consequence of the report, any actions being taken and any lessons learned? The Home Secretary might want to start that when she makes her statement. The key thing is that we are kept up to date. Any documents relating to future decisions must also be made public and made available to the families and others who want to see them.

G8 and NATO Summits

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is right to raise that issue. A good portion of the G8 was spent discussing the situation in Iran, and specifically discussing the talks that are under way in Baghdad today. It was heartening that the Russians signed up to a pretty tough text on Iran, and I think that the path is very clear. Europe has rightly adopted the oil sanctions, and the pressure is beginning to tell on the Iranian economy. This is the moment at which to maximise the pressure, to encourage other countries around the world to join in with the sanctions, and to say to the Iranians “There is a different pathway. You can have civil nuclear power; you can have a more decent relationship with other countries of the world; but you must give up the ambition of enriching uranium to such an extent that it could deliver a nuclear weapon to you.”

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

Whatever the structural deficiencies and other problems that exist in Greece and have existed there for a number of years, this problem was not caused by that; it was caused by the banking and economic crisis in the world, and the way in which the eurozone has dealt with it. The suffering and austerity in Greece is on a completely different scale from what we have even envisaged in this country, and it is untenable for it to continue. Will the Prime Minister go back and ask the euro partners—not least, of course, the Germans—to think again about what we can do to bring about a different plan there? I remind him that Greece is a very proud nation. It is a very important ally of ours, it stood by us alone in 1941 against the Nazis, and we should do what we can to help it.

[The Prime Minister]

Of course I agree that Greece is an important ally. Relations between Britain and Greece are very strong, and the historical analogy the hon. Gentleman draws is absolutely right. I do not agree, however, that the problems in Greece are caused only by the euro or by the banking crisis. There are deep and profound problems in the Greek economy that need to be dealt with. There must be the right combination: there need to be deficit reduction plans; there needs to be an active monetary policy; there need to be reforms to the eurozone; and there need to be structural reforms. In the end, however, it will be for the Greek people to decide whether they want to do these things inside the eurozone our outside the eurozone. Clearly, a disorderly exit would be very bad for Britain, and we should do everything we can to avoid that, but we need to plan for every eventuality and have proper contingencies in place.

G20

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 7th November 2011 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

None of our constituents wants to pay taxes to bail out the eurozone; that is not what our taxes should go towards. When we came to office we were part of the European financial stabilisation mechanism—the EFSM. I have got us out of that from 2013, but between now and then we are still at risk because of a very bad decision to which the previous Government agreed.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

If the eurozone continues to fail to deal with the crisis, what actions will the Prime Minister take to protect the interests of the UK?

Strategic Defence and Security Review

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Tuesday 19th October 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is right. The whole point about this review is that it has a vision for what our forces should look like in 2020—10 years’ time rather than just five years’ time. Because the Ministry of Defence and the service chiefs can now see their budgets for the whole of the spending review period, they can make proper plans and try to drive some efficiencies through the MOD so that they get even more for the money that they have. We must have reviews every five years. The problem has been that we had a review in 1998, which was not properly funded, and then a sort of scissors crisis, in which the commitments went in one direction and the ability to fund them went in another direction. To stop that happening in future, we need regular defence reviews and that is what we are committed to having.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

We have now seen some of the biggest cuts ever in defence, as we saw when the Conservatives were last in power. The so-called party of defence is no longer the party of defence. The Prime Minister has already said that we should be out of Afghanistan in five years, no matter what. Do the assumptions he has made assume that that is still the case and that the capability will therefore reduce over those five years?

[The Prime Minister]

Along with our NATO partners, we believe that there is a clear programme of training up the Afghan national army, police and security forces so that they should be in the lead by 2014. That is our aim, and in addition I have said that by 2015 we should not be in a major combat role or there in major numbers. By then we will have been in Helmand province for longer than the entire second world war. We will have played our part, and I am confident that we are making good progress so that the 2014 calendar to which NATO is committed will go ahead. I do not accept that taking long-term, difficult decisions about the defence of our country makes us somehow anti-defence—the opposite is true. I am passionate about our armed forces, what they represent in our country and what they do on our behalf, but we do not serve them by putting off decisions for the future, making all sorts of airy-fairy promises and then not funding them.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Wednesday 15th September 2010 Commons Chamber

[The Prime Minister]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. If we want to tackle poverty, we must go to the causes of poverty. The chief cause of poverty is people being out of work generation after generation and, as he says, young people growing up in homes where nobody works, where there is no role model to follow. That is why we are pursuing the welfare reform agenda so vigorously, because we want to help people to get out of unemployment and into work. We want it to be worth while for everybody to work or to work more than they do now. That is what our welfare reforms, so scandalously neglected by the previous Government, have set out to achieve.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

Q2. The proposed £400 million Mersey Gateway project, which will create up to 4,000 new jobs in the area, is under threat because of the spending review, despite the fact that it is strongly supported by business and by all local authorities across Cheshire and Merseyside, including the Chancellor’s local authority. How will cutting projects such as the Mersey Gateway help economic growth in the north-west?

[The Prime Minister]

We are not making any further cuts in capital spending. The hon. Gentleman ought to ask the question of those on his own Front Bench. The Labour party went into the last election with a 50% cut in capital spending in its figures, and did not tell us one single project that would be cut. We have said that that is far enough; we should go no further. We will be protecting capital spending to help to boost the recovery in our country.

G8 and G20 Summits

Debate between Derek Twigg and Lord Cameron of Chipping Norton

Monday 28th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister said in his statement that the G8 sent a collective signal that “we want the Afghan security forces to ‘assume increasing responsibility for security within five years’”—he did not say “full responsibility”. He said later on that he wanted to give an indication that we will be out of Afghanistan in five years. Does that mean that we will be out of Afghanistan regardless of the situation in that country in five years’ time—full stop?

[The Prime Minister]

The point is that for many years after our troops have left, we will have a strong relationship with Afghanistan that will involve diplomacy and aid, and perhaps even helping to continue to train Afghan forces. However, in answer to the question of whether we should be in Afghanistan by then in the way that we are now, with large-scale military deployment and all the rest of it, no we should not. We should by then have trained up the Afghan army and police force, and seen an improvement in governance, so that we can bring our troops back home.