Coronavirus Act 2020 (Review of Temporary Provisions) (No. 3)

Debate between Dawn Butler and Sajid Javid

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

During the pandemic, my right hon. Friend has done a fantastic job of drawing everyone’s attention, rightly, to the impact that the measures—the lockdown measures in particular—have had on children, especially those in school. I hope he would agree that the plans that the Government have set out, including our primary plan of relying on vaccinations, treatments—there are ever more treatments, which is fantastic news—testing and surveillance, is the right way to deal with the challenges of the pandemic.

With all the measures that we have taken, it is clear that we are now in a new phase of the pandemic and that we are learning to live with the virus. Throughout this public health crisis, we have always sought for our provisions to be proportionate to the threat that we face. Parliament has rightly been given the opportunity to scrutinise this legislation every six months. We do not wish to keep provisions in place any longer than they are absolutely necessary, especially those that are limiting the freedoms that rightly belong to citizens.

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State says that this House has had time to scrutinise the legislation, but 90 minutes every six months to scrutinise the Act really is not enough time for Parliament.

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Lady is right to point to the importance of scrutiny. Of course, it is not just the time that we have for debate now or the regular time we have had since this Act has been on the statute book. Scrutiny is also provided in other ways: for example, she will know that Select Committees have looked at the Act, with parliamentarians represented and taking evidence. That is just another way to make sure that the Act is getting the scrutiny that it deserves.

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[Sajid Javid]

Like my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) makes an important point. He will understand that now that the Act is in place, it is important that the Government act promptly and quickly at any time when we can retire, expire or in some cases suspend measures in it; that there is regular scrutiny of the process; and that I and other Ministers come to the House whenever we can to expire its provisions or, if they are to continue, to justify them.

[Dawn Butler]

The Act has always been presented on the Floor of the House as an all-or-nothing Bill; MPs never have an opportunity to change, amend or scrutinise it, so I think that the Secretary of State is just a little misleading in how he is presenting it to the House today.

[Dawn Butler]

Unintentionally misleading.

[Sajid Javid]

Thank you for that intervention, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think that I have been very clear not only about the history of the Act, but about the importance of Ministers coming forward for regular scrutiny to set out which provisions can be expired or suspended, or if expiry or suspension are not possible, why the provisions are necessary. That is the purpose of our debate today.

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[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend will know that there are numerous measures that the Government are planning to retain. To do proper justice to his question, I would have to go through them one by one and try to link them with every single Act, but I should be happy to meet him or write to him giving him the proper detail, because I think it was a very fair question.

[Dawn Butler]

rose—

[Sajid Javid]

I think I have given the hon. Lady enough opportunities to intervene.

We have come so far and achieved so much as a country because of the sacrifices of the British people and the dedication of our fantastic public servants. We are learning to live with the virus, so we can face the winter ahead with an ever greater degree of confidence. There is no doubt that we will continue to experience bumps on the road—covid-19 has not, of course, gone away, and flu remains an ever present danger—but I am confident that the steps that the Government have set out today strike the right balance, removing unnecessary stringent measures while retaining the tools to fight infection wherever it might arise.

Trade Union Bill

Debate between Dawn Butler and Sajid Javid

Monday 14th September 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sajid Javid]

There is a new Business Secretary in this Government and he is the one presenting this Bill.

Hon. Members from both sides of this House are, to some extent, insulated from the consequences of strike action. We are lucky enough to have generous travel expenses so that we can hire a car or a taxi when there is a transport strike. We have secure jobs, where we get paid whether we make it into the office or not. Even a Back Bencher is among the top 5% of UK earners, so we can afford to deal with the childcare costs that might come with a school closure or some disruption. But what about the low-paid restaurant staff who miss a day’s work and a day’s pay because of a stoppage called by a handful of transport workers? What about the self-employed builder who has to turn down a week-long job because a strike by teachers means that his kids cannot go to school? What about the single mother who cannot afford to lose a day’s pay by refusing to cross a picket line? Should she be subjected to abuse and harassment simply for going to work?

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State talks about women on low pay. Many of these women and men do not have bank accounts, yet he is still trying to get rid of check-off, which makes it easier for people to join trade unions. How is that helping people to defend their own rights?

[Sajid Javid]

There is absolutely no relationship between check-off and bank accounts. Anyone who is able to take advantage of check-off must have a bank account in order to receive their salary in the first place.

I also want to talk about the impact on taxpayers, who have to fund the salaries of public servants, only for those public servants to spend their time on trade union business. Do taxpayers not have a right at least to know what their taxes are being spent on? These are the people who are not represented in current trade union legislation, and by increasing transparency, fairness and democracy, they are the people that this Bill will protect. [Interruption.]

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[Sajid Javid]

I think the hon. Gentleman actually agrees with the rules that apply to businesses. When businesses make a political donation to whatever party, they rightly have to declare it and must be open and transparent. They often need the votes of their shareholders. These rules are absolutely consistent with that. The hon. Gentleman is surely not saying that there should be no transparency here.

[Dawn Butler]

The Secretary of State is being very generous with his time. On the point of businesses being open and transparent, should 40% of shareholders have to agree before a business can donate to a political party?

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Lady will know that businesses or individuals have to declare it when they make a donation. It has to be transparent. All businesses have to declare their donations and will often have to get the permission of their shareholders. In public companies, those shareholders will receive a vote. These changes are entirely consistent with that. We are saying that if someone is a union member, they should know that some of their money is going towards political purposes. It should be open and transparent. That is not the case in England, Scotland and Wales. It is the case in Northern Ireland. If it works in Northern Ireland, it can work in the rest of the United Kingdom.

Turning to check-off, as the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General has announced, a proposed amendment to the Bill will seek to end the practice by which union subscriptions are processed through payroll in public sector organisations. The so-called check-off system was created in a time before direct debits existed and serves no purpose in the modern workplace. It has already been abolished across Whitehall. The amendment will extend this modernising step to the rest of the taxpayer-funded workforce.

I respect Britain’s working men and women. I believe that they are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves whether they wish to support their union’s political activity and they are perfectly capable of paying their union subscriptions themselves. To suggest otherwise is to say that Britain’s union members are too lazy to set up a direct debit or too stupid to make a decision about politics. That is patronising in the extreme.

In the past few weeks, the Labour party has shown that it is possible actively to recruit hundreds of thousands of members to a support a cause and that it is possible to get hard-working men and women to hand over their hard-earned money to back an idea that they believe in. Not one of Labour’s new members signed up by mistake because they failed to tick a box. Not one of the registered supporters was required to pay their £3 through their employer’s payroll. Every new recruit to the Labour party made an active decision to participate. If the party born of the unions can achieve that, surely the unions themselves can do the same.