Department for Education

Debate between David Morris and Gareth Thomas

Tuesday 3rd July 2018 Commons Chamber

[Gareth Thomas]

I gently say to the right hon. Gentleman that he is very welcome to come to Harrow, and I would be very happy to organise a roundtable for him with headteachers of primary schools and secondary schools, because the experience that he describes is not the one that they have to face on a daily basis in managing their funding needs. He is sitting next to his colleague, the Minister for Apprenticeships and Skills, who I was glad to meet to discuss the funding needs of a sixth-form college that faces significant additional financial pressures.

More funding needs to be put into the school education system. Harrow needs it and every other school needs it—

[David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Gareth Thomas]

Much as I would be delighted to invite the hon. Gentleman to join the Minister for School Standards in visiting Harrow, I hope that in the light of what Madam Deputy Speaker said, he will forgive me for not allowing him to intervene. Finally, there needs to be a 10-year funding plan and crucially, more investment next year in funding for schools across England and particularly, if the House will forgive me, in Harrow.

Trade Union Funding

Debate between David Morris and Gareth Thomas

Wednesday 29th February 2012 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) on securing the debate. She said that trade unions are a valuable part of our civic society and that they do hugely important work on behalf of many of their members, and I very much agree with that comment. She went on to make a series of other points from which she drew conclusions with which I am afraid I cannot agree.

I am slightly surprised that she and some Conservative Members should so obviously want to attack the interests of hard-working people—the home help, the teacher, the nurse, the learning assistant, the dustman, the cleaner. Those and many others who work in the private and, in particular given today’s debate, the public sectors are not paid huge salaries. They are part of the squeezed middle and are seeing their finances hit hard by the Government’s VAT rise, for example, and by high energy bills, which Ministers will not act on. Many of them are extremely worried about whether they will have a job in six months’ or a year’s time.

If the hon. Lady and some of her colleagues have their way, the right of such people to be properly represented will be taken away. Thousands of hard-working families will lose that most basic of rights—the right to be properly represented when they need it most. That point was made by my hon. Friends the Members for Blaydon (Mr Anderson) and for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery).

Virtually all the staff who would be affected most by the hon. Lady’s proposals do not earn huge salaries, yet they still demonstrate considerable commitment and hard work in delivering some of our most basic and important public services. The Prime Minister once spoke of compassionate conservatism. I ask the hon. Lady and her colleagues, how is it compassionate to take away from often low-paid, hard-working employees the opportunity to be properly and professionally represented when they need it most?

[David Morris]

The hon. Gentleman referred to hard-working families. Does he not think that it is appalling that hard-working families’ taxes are funding people who should be working, but rather than doing their actual jobs, the taxpayer is paying them to be union officials pro rata?

[Mr Thomas]

With all due respect to the hon. Gentleman, I think that he has got completely the wrong end of the stick, as I will explain.

If an employee is facing sexual harassment, worried about safety in the workplace, about to lose their job or have their pay cut, and does not know where to turn when they have problems at work, trade union representatives—independent of their employers—offer a crucial place to turn. They are trained and experienced in handling such issues and in liaising with employers to resolve disputes and workplace problems before they escalate. They help to reduce the cost to the immediate employer and the social and human cost for the individuals concerned. They reduce costs to the employer and ultimately help to reduce the cost to the taxpayer, a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran).

Even if one accepts the figures in the TaxPayers Alliance report, which seems to have provided the context for the debate, union representatives amount to only 0.05% of the public sector work force, and, it must be said, they carry out a significant proportion of union duties in their own time. They have attracted a vast amount of Conservative MPs’ time. It is reasonable to wonder whether spending so much time on that issue is the best use of the House’s time. The national health service is in crisis, we have record levels of joblessness, the economy is in free fall, welfare to work schemes are falling apart, many charities and community groups are in a desperate search for funding and there are huge cuts to our armed forces. When all those issues deserve the attention of the House, it is a little surprising that Conservative Members want to focus on 0.05% of the work force.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) pointed out, interestingly, union representatives continue to enjoy the support of many business people, so much so that the former director general of the CBI, Sir Richard Lambert, described them as having

“a lot to give their fellow employees and the organisations that employ them.”

If such a senior figure from the business world was moved to endorse the role of union representatives, maybe Conservative Members should pause and consider whether the performance of organisations in the public sector benefits from union representatives paid for by the public sector, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) and my hon. Friend the Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) said.

Research by the University of Hertfordshire examining the benefits of funding trade union facility time in the public sector suggests that the work of union representatives saves between £260 million and £701 million per annum. For every £1 spent on union facility time in the public sector therefore, between £2 and £5 is returned in accrued benefits. Many City institutions would be proud of that rate of return. I gently ask why the hon. Member for Congleton and her hon. Friends think that Britain can afford to waste such sums of money, because that is what would happen if her proposals were accepted.

The organisation that appears to have created the context for the debate, and indeed for other such debates, is the TaxPayers Alliance. Its report does not seem to be terribly well researched. It is certainly not up there with research from the Institute for Fiscal Studies or Barnardo’s and it certainly contains misunderstandings about how the Union Learning Fund works. When I was preparing for the debate, I was interested that the slightly calmer voice of the Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning praised the work of Unionlearn. The report refers to unions that do not exist and to organisations that are not unions, including School Leaders Scotland, the Retired Officers’ Association and, I am told, a credit union.