Government Referendum Leaflet

Debate between David Lidington and Liam Fox

Monday 11th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

I think the hon. Lady really wishes that the Government should be neutral in this debate. The Government are not neutral. We are advocating that the British people should vote in favour of continued membership of the European Union. The Prime Minister, the Foreign Secretary, the Chancellor, other Ministers and I consistently said that, when the time came for the referendum to be held, the Government would express our view clearly and make our recommendation known, so we are delivering on what we have said to the British people.

As regards the hon. Lady’s question about one particular element in the leaflet, the footnotes that support each of the statements have themselves been published online by the Government, and she and other hon. Members are welcome to check the source material.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

The weakness in my right hon. Friend’s case is that this “Dodgy Dossier: the Sequel” does not actually contain facts; it contains opinions, assertions and suppositions. Not only is it a waste of public money, but in effectively doubling the remain campaign’s budget, the Government have betrayed any sense of fairness in the process of the referendum and, with the content of the leaflet, have abdicated their responsibility to tell the truth on the issues. It is bad enough getting junk mail, but to have Juncker mail sent to us with our own taxes is the final straw.

[Mr Lidington]

As I said in response to the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey), the source materials for the various facts and arguments presented in the Government’s leaflet have themselves been published. We are being completely transparent about the basis on which we are making those arguments to the British people.

As I said earlier, we are following the precedent set in many other referendum campaigns in this country. We are doing nothing that will stop the two campaign organisations putting their case to the British people, in due course, with as much vigour as they choose. In the final 28 days of the campaign, the Government’s ability to communicate or publish at all on these matters will be severely limited not just by purdah guidance but by statute law itself. I reject the notion that this leaflet is somehow unfair. The Government are taking responsibility for presenting their case and recommendation to the British people on a decision that will have enormous consequences not just for those voting this year but for future generations.

EU-Turkey Agreement

Debate between David Lidington and Liam Fox

Wednesday 9th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

I agree with the hon. Lady that it is in this country’s interests, and in the interests of every European country, that we put together a determined and coherent response to the crisis. I also agree that no single European country—not Greece, Germany, the UK or anyone else—can solve this human tragedy, or stop the wicked work of the people traffickers who are exploiting it, on its own.

The hon. Lady asked about the ceasefire in Syria. The latest information indicates that it is holding, but it is not holding perfectly—that will be no surprise to any Member. The Prime Minister, along with other European leaders, had a conference call with President Putin a few days ago to take stock of how things now look, and to urge him to work towards a political settlement and a political transition in Syria, which we continue to believe represents the long-term answer to try to rebuild that country and to give people hope that they can have a safe and secure life there.

The hon. Lady asked how the business model of the people traffickers would be harmed by the agreement reached last week. One key element of the deal—I emphasise again that it is yet to be finalised—would be that somebody who went in a boat and was intercepted or processed having reached one of the Greek islands would face being sent back to Turkey. They would then be put to the back of the queue for legal resettlement, so the incentive for people to entrust their safety to the people carriers would be removed.

The hon. Lady asked about the number of arrivals in this country under the Syrian refugee resettlement scheme. The number is now running at more than 1,000, so this is going on track and much as we had planned. I ought to recognise the role that the devolved Administrations and local authorities of all political colours have played in trying to make the scheme successful, and in making the process as easy as possible for the people whom we are trying to help.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend correctly says that there is no obligation on the United Kingdom to take in extra migrants under the deal, but will he confirm that, once any of the 1 million migrants who have come to Europe in the past year and the 1 million who are expected are given EU citizenship, they will all technically have a right to come to the United Kingdom, as long as we remain in the European Union?

[Mr Lidington]

The fact that we are outside Schengen means that we impose border checks on everybody, including EU citizens. We stop and turn back EU citizens when we have good reason for thinking that their presence in the United Kingdom would be a threat to public safety.

On my right hon. Friend’s specific point, the overwhelming majority of those who have been granted refugee status in Europe have been granted that in Germany, which is where people are trying to get to. The proportion of all refugees in Germany who get German citizenship is roughly 2.2%, and the numbers are small because the German citizenship procedure is so rigorous. It takes eight to 10 years before somebody can get German citizenship. To achieve that, they need to have a completely clean criminal record, to show that they have an independent source of income and to pass an integration test, including by demonstrating a knowledge of German. Some of the fears that have been expressed are rather exaggerated, given the reality of the German situation.

UK’s Relationship with the EU

Debate between David Lidington and Liam Fox

Tuesday 2nd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has consistently said, continued full membership of a reformed European Union is a win-win for the people of the United Kingdom, because when Europe works together effectively, it can, indeed, do more for the citizens of all countries than any one country acting on its own.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

In what areas of policy are the Government seeking exemption for the UK from the jurisdiction of the European Court, because without such exemption we cannot be free from the concept of ever-closer union?

[Mr Lidington]

The documents do point to areas where very clear exemptions would be made. Clearly, the Court is there to ensure that the treaties are observed by all member states and by the institutions, but if the drafts we have received today are agreed by everybody, and if they take the form of international law decisions and European Council declarations, they will have not just political but legal significance, which the Court will take into account when it frames its response to any particular case brought to it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Lidington]

The hon. Gentleman has always been, quite openly, an opponent of British membership of the European Union. If the United Kingdom were to have a unilateral veto on everything, that would have to be the case for every other member state as well. We would certainly find some of the trading and single market measures that bring huge benefit to the people of Northern Ireland at risk from a veto by a more protectionist-minded Government elsewhere in Europe.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

Action Plan on Human Rights and Democracy

Debate between David Lidington and Liam Fox

Monday 25th January 2016 General Committees

[Mr Lidington]

If my hon. Friend looks at the track record of the current Government and their predecessor coalition Government, she will see that many more debates on documents referred by the European Scrutiny Committee have been held on the Floor of the House than was the case under predecessor Governments. It is always a difficult balance for the Government to strike in terms of the allocation of parliamentary time and we feel that we are granting a fair share of the Committee’s requests for debates on the Floor of the House. I can remember a previous Chair of the European Scrutiny Committee saying to me that he could remember being told informally by the Whips in the life of a previous Government that he could have two Floor debates a year and that he should decide which two he wanted out of the many documents that came through his Committee. We have had a lot more than two.

Any Member of the House of Commons is entitled to attend and speak at the European Committees. I take my hon. Friend’s point that a lot of Members, one would think, might be interested in human rights questions, especially given the number of lobbying campaigns to which we are all subjected by different pressure groups on behalf of human rights defenders of various countries, but our colleagues do not turn up in those numbers. The opportunity is there for hon. Members to take part if they wish to avail themselves of it.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

I would like to press my right hon. Friend on one issue. The debate is obviously not just about human rights but strays into the whole area of EU competence. I would like to concentrate on value for money. I am clear from what he said about who determines how much money the EU wants and the mechanism by which the money is allocated. Would he say a little bit more about the audit trail? Exactly how is the money audited, by whom and when, to ensure that we, in this House, are able to trace where our taxpayers’ money has gone, what it has been used for and whether we might have been able to use it better ourselves were we not encumbered by this excessive bureaucratic EU cost?

[Mr Lidington]

Of course we will account, as the second biggest net contributor to the EU, for roughly 15% pro rata of spending on every EU programme. The judgment that the Government have to make—and that all voters will have to make at the forthcoming referendum—is, among other things, whether it is better and more greatly to our advantage in national terms to have some activities carried out collectively at a European level, rather than trying to do that bilaterally. A related question is whether, in the event of the United Kingdom leaving the EU, we would get all of that contribution back or whether, as with Norway and Switzerland, a considerable proportion would still need to be paid to the EU budget in the course of a subsequent relationship.

I am never satisfied with value for money. From the various Court of Auditors reports that I have looked at, more could and should be done at the EU level. I do not think that the EU institutions have adopted the culture that has been forced on this country and on many other EU member states of having to cut the coat to fit the cloth and having to engage in some painful reprioritisation as a consequence of dealing with limited resources.

The procedural reality is that the funds are subject to EU internal audit processes, which are monitored by the EU Court of Auditors. It is up to the Court of Auditors, as with the National Audit Office here, to decide where it wants to focus its attention. The mid-term review of the action plan to assess progress will take place next year. That will give us the opportunity to look more deeply into whether we have secured the value for money and the outcomes that we seek from this expenditure.

My own view is that it does provide a net benefit for the United Kingdom when we are able to speak not just as one country, or even perhaps with France and Germany as three significant European countries, but when we are able to work effectively as a bloc of 28. The reality is that, precisely because of the United Kingdom’s diplomatic weight and strength and because we have a global diplomatic network and a global reach to our diplomacy, we, like France, are able to exercise a disproportionate influence upon how EU-level foreign policy positions, including on human rights, are developed. In that sense, we get benefit where we are prepared to be active and where we fight hard to try to ensure that our priorities and objectives are taken up as European priorities and objectives. It is not perfect—I completely accept that—and my right hon. Friend is absolutely correct to warn of the need to be vigilant about competence because there is always a risk of the envelope being pushed by the Brussels institutions, but on balance I think we gain from the amplification of national diplomacy by effective EU action.

Gibraltar

Debate between David Lidington and Liam Fox

Thursday 8th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend may say that my manner belies this, but I can assure him that I am as fed up and frustrated as him or any of my hon. Friends about the way in which the Spanish Government have acted, but the Government collectively and I feel a grave responsibility to try to secure an outcome that will result in things getting better and not worse for the people of Gibraltar. That is guiding our judgments on precisely which actions we take.

I want to allow time for my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South to respond.

On the economy of Gibraltar and ad hoc talks, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) pointed out that the economy of Gibraltar is flourishing despite all the problems thrown at it by Spain, with growth at about 10.3% per annum. In the Chief Minister’s budget speech last November, he said that those

“numbers will rank Gibraltar as one of the fastest growing economies in the world.”

In the past decade, Gibraltar has modernised and diversified its economy, and attracted new inward investment. It is an example to be admired. We need to be clear that, regardless of the extreme provocation that the Spanish tactics represent, they are not working—they are not stopping Gibraltar continue to grow and prosper. Gibraltar is thriving. I applaud the success and commitment that the Government and the people of Gibraltar have shown in defying the difficult circumstances that surround them.

The truth is that Andalucia, the poorest part of Spain, benefits hugely from the prosperity of Gibraltar, not only through the employment of thousands of Spanish citizens who travel to work in Gibraltar every day of the week, but through the spending power of Gibraltans in the Campo and southern Spain more widely. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough has said, that mutually beneficial economic relationship could be even stronger were Spain to see sense, open the border, and encourage cross-border links and mutual prosperity. That would benefit the people of the Rock and the people of Andalucia. I question why, at a time when about half of young people in Spain are tragically out of work, the Government of Spain resist the opportunity, even in that relatively small way, to enhance growth, prosperity and job creation in one of the most impoverished parts of their country.

[Dr Fox]

There is another way in which the prosperity of Gibraltar could be further enhanced, and that is if our NATO allies were to use the naval facilities in Gibraltar to an even greater extent. As I pointed out, the United States is one of the few allies that does this, largely because if any other ally even thinks about it inside NATO it comes under huge pressure from Spain, even intimidation and threats. Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to tell our NATO allies that they would be extremely welcome to use the naval facilities in Gibraltar, which would provide not only the alliance with something of a boost, but potentially employment and prosperity as well?

[Mr Lidington]

I am very happy to do so. Ships from any of our NATO allies would, I know, be more than welcome to call in to Gibraltar. When I went out with the Royal Navy Gibraltar Squadron during my last visit to the Rock, they pointed out to me with pride that they thought there was space in the docks in Gibraltar for one of the new aircraft carriers to moor when she is launched and able to visit that part of the world.

It remains our aim, and that of the Government of Gibraltar, to return to the trilateral forum—the dialogue between the UK, Spain and Gibraltar—which, as the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East said, did enable practical, mutually beneficial discussions between the three parties and helped to enhance trust between Administrations where there had been a lot of mistrust for historical reasons that we all understand. I deeply regret the fact that the Spanish Government have withdrawn formally from the trilateral process.

Despite that, we are working in the meantime on ad hoc talks that would be held at official level as a way of making progress on issues of mutual interest. The Spanish authorities have been involved in those conversations with us. We have at times been hopeful that the talks were about to come to fruition. So far we have not been able to strike that final agreement about the modalities of the talks. I hope that they can take place as soon as possible, because there are important practical questions to do with co-operation against smuggling and co-operation on issues to do with pollution, where I have seen complaints both from Gibraltar about Spain and Spain about Gibraltar. We need the two Governments to sit down and talk to each other, and it is important that the talks include all relevant parties, including the Government of Gibraltar and the Government of Spain.

The Government believe that there can be no compromise on the right of the people of Gibraltar to remain British for as long as they choose so to do. There can be no return to the bilateral discussions between the United Kingdom and Spain over sovereignty that characterised some of the talks in the past. Nor can there be any return to the idea of joint sovereignty, which was entertained by the previous Government in 2001 and 2002. The Government are determined to work to uphold and defend the interests of the people of Gibraltar, their right to live in freedom and prosperity, and it is that principle that will guide every aspect of our policy.