Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Lidington and Gerald Howarth

Tuesday 12th April 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

It is the case that British pensioners and other expatriate UK citizens who are resident in other EU member states get certain rights and benefits as a consequence of our EU membership. We cannot guarantee that in the event of a British withdrawal, the negotiations on exit would lead to those rights and benefits being retained.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

In the Minister’s publicly funded glossy brochure—I have a copy here—which claims to set out the facts, the Government state:

“Our EU membership magnifies the UK’s ability to get its way on the issues we care about.”

Will my right hon. Friend explain how that squares with the fact that the UK has been outvoted every time it has voted against an EU measure—72 times in total, and 40 of those defeats under this Government?

[Mr Lidington]

I suggest that my hon. Friend checks the footnotes to the leaflet, which have been published online so that everybody can see the basis on which those statements are made. We have been successful in roughly 87% of votes in the Council of Ministers, and most outside observers say that we have a better track record than most other member states in getting our own way.

EU-Turkey Agreement

Debate between David Lidington and Gerald Howarth

Wednesday 9th March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

As I have said before, we continue to talk frequently to Turkish officials and Ministers at all levels about the importance we ascribe to human rights, the rule of law and freedom of expression, and that will remain a core element of our dialogue with Turkey.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

Further to the question from the hon. Member for Ochil and South Perthshire (Ms Ahmed-Sheikh), I am not clear on the Government’s position on the legality of the mass transfer of intercepted migrants back to Turkey. What instructions are being given to the captain of Royal Fleet Auxiliary Mounts Bay for when it intercepts a boatload of migrants? Has the captain been authorised to take those people back to Turkey? Will they be accepted back into Turkey? How does that fit with the comments from the UNHCR last night?

[Mr Lidington]

I am not sure whether my hon. Friend was in the House for the statement that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Defence made on Monday about the naval operation. The NATO operation is engaged in initial reconnaissance and surveillance of illegal crossings. It then passes that information on to the Turkish authorities so that the Turkish coastguard can respond and carry out interceptions. At the moment, that work is not being done by NATO vessels.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Lidington and Gerald Howarth

Tuesday 12th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

I can give my hon. Friend an unqualified assurance on that point. We will continue to talk to Russia about Syria and other matters, but we are absolutely clear that there is no trade-off between any agreement over Syria and our resolute support for Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

rose—

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I am grateful to you, Mr Speaker. As my right hon. Friend knows, corruption is a major problem in Ukraine, and one that is continuing to undermine the economic recovery of that country. What efforts are the British Government making to impress on the Ukrainian Government that they must end the practice of corruption if they want our continued support?

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend puts his finger on one of the central challenges facing the Ukrainian Government and political parties in carrying out domestic reform. I do not think the House should underestimate how challenging that is in a country where corruption has been endemic for so long. We are doing what we can—not just through words, but with United Kingdom technical assistance—to enable the Ukrainians to move towards fighting corruption and establishing genuinely independent and impartial judicial and legal systems. The first projects under the good governance fund, which the Prime Minister announced last March, are now up and running in Ukraine.

Europe: Renegotiation

Debate between David Lidington and Gerald Howarth

Tuesday 10th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

In this year, as we mark the 750th anniversary of the first English Parliament—some of our continental partners are rather newcomers to this concept—may I suggest to my right hon. Friend that unless we return powers to this Parliament, this exercise will not be worth while, for it is in this Parliament that authority ultimately should reside, on behalf of the British people? Can he therefore explain to us how on earth this new arrangement, whereby groups of national Parliaments acting together can stop unwanted legislative proposals, is going to work?

[Mr Lidington]

I share my hon. Friend’s love of English history, but I caution him against seeing Simon de Montfort as a true-born Englishman. The direct answer to his question is that the treaties already provide for a mechanism whereby a group of national Parliaments can demand and secure a review by the Commission of a measure the Commission is bringing forward. We think one option we should be looking at is turning such an arrangement above a certain threshold into an outright veto—a red card rather than a yellow card.

Gibraltar

Debate between David Lidington and Gerald Howarth

Thursday 8th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Sir Richard Ottaway) and the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) for securing this opportunity to debate Gibraltar this afternoon. Before I proceed with my speech, I should like to observe that it seems odd for us to be debating Gibraltar without the presence of the late Jim Dobbin. My hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) rightly paid tribute to Jim, who was chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on Gibraltar until his death last year. He was a great supporter of Gibraltar and its people, and he is greatly missed by his friends and colleagues on both sides of the House.

I want to set out the Government’s policy towards Spain on Gibraltar, the developments that have taken place and the progress that has been made since the Select Committee’s report and the Government’s response were produced last year. I shall start by making it clear that the entire Government will continue to be steadfast in our support for Gibraltar and for the sovereignty of the United Kingdom in Gibraltar. The United Kingdom has given a firm commitment that we will never enter into arrangements under which the people of Gibraltar would pass under the sovereignty of another state against their wishes. Furthermore, we have given an assurance that we would not even enter into a process of sovereignty negotiations with which Gibraltar was not content. The wishes of the people of Gibraltar to remain British must be respected, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh) and others have pointed out. This is a matter of self-determination; at root, it is a matter of democracy at work, and that democratic will must be respected.

As the hon. Member for Ilford South said, there are important common interests between the United Kingdom and the kingdom of Spain. There are strategically significant issues on which we need to work together, ranging from working against terrorism and against the trafficking of narcotics and people to negotiations on international trade, which would enable the peoples of both countries to prosper, as well as on climate change and on innovative technology. It is striking, for example, that the United Kingdom and Spain have been on the same side in European Union discussions on genetically modified technology. That makes it even more a matter of regret that the short-sighted and, frankly, outmoded and anti-democratic attitude that the Spanish Government are taking towards Gibraltar has prevented that bilateral UK-Spain relationship from developing to the extent, or with the warmth, that we would have preferred.

We must be clear that our primary responsibility in respect of Gibraltar is to uphold the security of the territory and defend its international interests. I take that responsibility seriously, as does every Minister in this Government, but when considering what action to take, we must decide what action is most likely to deliver positive results. As my hon. Friend the Member for Hornchurch and Upminster (Dame Angela Watkinson) said, we are right to be firm in the defence of British sovereignty and the interests of the people of Gibraltar, but we must seek to do so in a way that does not end up inadvertently making their position worse. The mere facts of geography do put Spain in a position to exercise pressure, particularly at the borders.

As part of that work, the Government have sought, under successive Governments in the territory, to work increasingly closely with Her Majesty’s Government of Gibraltar. It is fair to say that this Chief Minister and his predecessor always continue to be firm in standing up for the interests of Gibraltar, but it is also accurate to say that there is a closer relationship now. There is a better habit of working together between the two Governments and of respecting the rules of the 2006 constitution than there has been for many years.

Let me move on to deal with some issues that have been at the centre of today’s debate, starting with EU legislation on aviation. Our starting point is that Gibraltar is, in respect of aviation laws, a part of the European Union. The treaties of the European Union apply to the territory of Gibraltar, except where certain parts are expressly disapplied. Article 355 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union states clearly, in paragraph 3:

“The provisions of the Treaties shall apply to the European territories for whose external relations a Member State is responsible.”

Therefore, in respect of aviation and other important political questions, Gibraltar falls within the European Union. We are therefore more than disappointed—we are angry—that Spain is seeking to secure the suspension of Gibraltar from EU aviation dossiers. We have been very clear with the Commission and with other member state Governments throughout that such attempts by Spain to secure Gibraltar’s suspension are completely unacceptable, and would be illegal and, in our view, a breach of the European Union treaties.

The irony of all this is that several EU legislative measures now in draft would be of particular value to not only the UK aviation industry, but Europe’s aviation industry more generally. The British Air Transport Association estimates that the failure to make progress with draft legislation on air passenger rights is likely to cost British airlines up to £50 million a year—a figure that will be translated into higher air fares for passengers. The European Commission estimates that the single European sky initiative overall may provide up to €5 billion in greater efficiencies for the European aviation sector. Yet legislation in both policy areas—legislation that would bring practical benefits to citizens throughout Europe—is being stalled by Spain’s insistence on seeking to exclude Gibraltar from its application.

Let me deal with the debate at the Transport Council last year and what has happened since. Gibraltar continues to be included in existing single European sky II legislation, as required under the treaties. The Council has not reached full agreement on the replacement SES II measure, and therefore has no coherent position with which to take this issue to trilogue with the European Parliament. Following the Transport Council, which has been mentioned several times in this debate, the Government have engaged at a senior level with both the Italian and now the Latvian presidencies of the European Union and with the European Commission.

We have secured a clear assurance that this legislation will not be taken forward in a form that is unacceptable to us. I was asked whether, in the event of a measure being passed by qualified majority voting that excluded Gibraltar, we would take legal action. I prefer not to speculate too far on legal action in hypothetical circumstances because our objective is that treaties should be respected, and we believe that the Commission, with a duty to uphold the treaties, and other member state Governments who also have such an interest would support us in such an objective. I think that I have made it clear that we would regard the exclusion of Gibraltar as a breach of the article that I mentioned earlier in my remarks.

On unlawful incursions, we have continued to uphold British sovereignty over British Gibraltan territorial waters with the very professional work of the Royal Navy in Gibraltar to challenge incursions as they happen and by issuing swift diplomatic protests. Where incursions have been particularly serious, such as attempts to exercise jurisdiction in British Gibraltan waters by Spanish survey vessels, we have continued to take particularly strong diplomatic and political action. As was said earlier in the debate, the number of times we have summoned the Spanish ambassador is unprecedented for an EU NATO partner. The latest statistics I saw said that we had summoned the Spanish ambassador now more than the ambassador of any other country bar Assad’s Syria.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

I am sure that we are all mightily impressed that the Spanish ambassador has been summoned to be reprimanded by my right hon. Friend, but what notice does Spain take? What is the result of his protests? What impact do they have?

[Mr Lidington]

After one summons in respect of an incursion by a survey vessel, that survey vessel’s time in Gibraltar waters was curtailed and the immediate crisis was ended. The various strong actions that we took—the Spanish Government know that a public summons is a very exceptional action for the UK Government to take—did contribute to making that difference. At that time, there were also direct political representations at ministerial and top official level to Madrid. It is not the case that a summons to an ambassador or a protest by note verbale are necessarily the only actions that we take. Such actions are often accompanied by political representations on the appropriate senior channels.

The number of unlawful incursions dropped from 496 in 2013 to 387 last year—about a 22% reduction—but that still leaves us with an unacceptably high number of incursions. We will continue to make it clear to Spain that, as an EU partner and a NATO ally, the escalation of tensions is bound to impose a cost on the bilateral relationship. The normal practice is that Spanish state vessels are challenged by the Royal Navy, and we follow that up with diplomatic and political protests. It is important to make it clear that, although incursions are a violation of sovereignty, they do not threaten or weaken sovereignty in the sense of undermining the strength of our legal case for sovereignty over those waters. That is what made the survey vessel incursions particularly serious. By purporting to exercise jurisdiction by going about survey work in British Gibraltan territorial waters, those survey vessels were acting in a way which, if unchallenged, could be interpreted as our acknowledging a loss or a diminution of our sovereignty over those waters. That accounts for the difference of the calibration of our response to those incursions compared with some of the others by, for example, Guardia Civil vessels.

I was asked about our assessment of naval resources. The Government’s assessment is that the assets, structure and procedures of the Royal Navy Gibraltar Squadron are commensurate with its tasking, including challenging unlawful maritime incursions within British Gibraltan territorial waters. We regularly assess the naval mission and the assets and people required to deliver it to ensure that its responsibilities can be carried out effectively, and I will certainly not rule out reinforcement of the naval mission or of other military assets in Gibraltar.

In making such a determination we would have to decide how such deployments would make a practical difference for good. For example, I was asked about arrests. The legal reality is that state vessels under international law have sovereign immunity from being boarded. That is a legal reality and a breach would have implications well beyond British Gibraltan issues and one would have to think through the possible consequences for British vessels in other circumstances and other parts of the world. When we discuss these questions in government and carry out these reviews, it is a question not just of which vessels and how many people are involved and so on but of which rules of engagement will apply if one dispatches additional reinforcements. We keep the matter under close watch and I have been having regular conversations with my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Armed Forces over recent months. The clear principle is that we will not budge in a resolute defence of British sovereignty over those waters.

We have been in close contact with the European Commission on border delays during the past few months and since the publication of the report and the Government’s response last year. At the request of the United Kingdom, the Commission sent a second border monitoring mission to Gibraltar on 2 July and subsequently wrote to both Gibraltar and Spain. The Commission has stated publicly that it has serious concerns about the lack of progress Spain has made in addressing its earlier recommendations and—critically, this has happened since the publication of the two reports—the Commission has said that checks that give rise to waits of several hours to cross the border are disproportionate. We are using the arguments about the freedom of movement of persons with the Commission, other member states and the Government of Spain. Spain has the right to impose such border checks as are proportionate and sufficient to provide safeguards against crime, smuggling and other illegal activities and it is a fact that not just we and the Gibraltan Government but the Commission, as guardian of that freedom of movement right under the treaties, is saying that those checks are disproportionate to the objectives laid down in European law. That is a significant step.

We continue to lobby the Commission on the need to ensure that Spain carries out its recommendations and to make it clear that we expect the Commission to take legal action should there be little movement.

My hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) asked about the possibility of a permanent monitoring force or unannounced inspections, as did the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden). I have already urged the Commission to carry out unannounced inspections and the Government of Gibraltar have made an offer to host a permanent monitoring mission if the new Commission is willing to undertake such an operation.

Spain has now begun construction work at the border area, saying that it is working to improve the system in line with the plans it has submitted to the European Commission, and we have started to see an overall downward trend in the delays, although the level of delays remains unacceptable. We continue to press the Commission to monitor the situation closely.

I do not rule out unilateral action by the United Kingdom under article 259 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union. My caution about this option is that precedent shows that going to the European Court of Justice in such a way is not a swift process. My judgment for now is that we stand the better chance of securing the outcome we want for the people of Gibraltar if we work through pressure on the European Commission, using the arguments about enforcing European law, and seeing that Spain complies with it, than if we take unilateral action, which would put an end to the work in the European institutions to which we have committed ourselves to date.

[Sir Gerald Howarth]

My right hon. Friend is the embodiment of reasonableness—everything he has said about what his Department is doing is couched in terms of reasonableness and accordance with article this, that or the other—but people are fed up with the United Kingdom and our British overseas territory of Gibraltar being treated in a cavalier fashion by a NATO and European ally. We are looking for a bit of retaliation. To be perfectly candid, what he has done has had no effect. He said that we have reduced the number of incursions by 22%, but we need to send the Spanish defence attaché packing back to Madrid.

[Mr Lidington]

My hon. Friend may say that my manner belies this, but I can assure him that I am as fed up and frustrated as him or any of my hon. Friends about the way in which the Spanish Government have acted, but the Government collectively and I feel a grave responsibility to try to secure an outcome that will result in things getting better and not worse for the people of Gibraltar. That is guiding our judgments on precisely which actions we take.

I want to allow time for my right hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South to respond.

On the economy of Gibraltar and ad hoc talks, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) pointed out that the economy of Gibraltar is flourishing despite all the problems thrown at it by Spain, with growth at about 10.3% per annum. In the Chief Minister’s budget speech last November, he said that those

“numbers will rank Gibraltar as one of the fastest growing economies in the world.”

In the past decade, Gibraltar has modernised and diversified its economy, and attracted new inward investment. It is an example to be admired. We need to be clear that, regardless of the extreme provocation that the Spanish tactics represent, they are not working—they are not stopping Gibraltar continue to grow and prosper. Gibraltar is thriving. I applaud the success and commitment that the Government and the people of Gibraltar have shown in defying the difficult circumstances that surround them.

The truth is that Andalucia, the poorest part of Spain, benefits hugely from the prosperity of Gibraltar, not only through the employment of thousands of Spanish citizens who travel to work in Gibraltar every day of the week, but through the spending power of Gibraltans in the Campo and southern Spain more widely. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough has said, that mutually beneficial economic relationship could be even stronger were Spain to see sense, open the border, and encourage cross-border links and mutual prosperity. That would benefit the people of the Rock and the people of Andalucia. I question why, at a time when about half of young people in Spain are tragically out of work, the Government of Spain resist the opportunity, even in that relatively small way, to enhance growth, prosperity and job creation in one of the most impoverished parts of their country.

European Council

Debate between David Lidington and Gerald Howarth

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Lidington]

The hon. Lady is being unusually churlish. If she looks again at the Council’s conclusions, she will see that we not only managed to secure important and positive British interests that take the development of the common security and defence policy in the direction that the UK has long advocated, but—and she omitted to mention this in her question—we secured key safeguards on the operation of the banking union to ensure that the taxpayers of this country are not liable for the consequences of any solvency decision made by our eurozone colleagues. The Opposition might have had the grace to pay tribute to what the Prime Minister achieved; otherwise people might come to think that the Opposition are somehow dismissive of the interests of British taxpayers and of safeguarding them against such liabilities.

The hon. Lady asked directly about the safeguards that the Government were putting in place for people who might be exploited if they came here from other parts of the EU or elsewhere in the world. I can reassure her that the Government are doubling the fine for people who employ illegal workers and quadrupling the fine for paying people below the statutory minimum wage. Under the previous Labour Government, the fine for paying somebody below the minimum wage was £5,000 per employer. Under this Government, the fine will be £20,000 per employee, not per employer. When it comes to the protection of exploited workers, the Opposition’s record does not give them anything of which to be proud.

[Sir Gerald Howarth (Aldershot) (Con)]

I warmly welcome the Prime Minister’s repeated assertion that NATO remains the cornerstone of the defence of the United Kingdom and, of course, of western Europe. However, may I put it to my right hon. Friend the Minister that the observations made by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) and my hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) illustrate that there is no reduction in the enthusiasm of some of our continental partners about creating an EU defence identity in conflict with NATO? Should not those countries be working within NATO to strengthen NATO’s capabilities as the United States inevitably reduces its interest in Europe in favour of the Pacific? I remind my right hon. Friend that we have a veto on defence matters in the EU and I hope that he will ensure that that is maintained.

[Mr Lidington]

Yes, we not only have a veto but we have legislated in the European Union Act 2011 to require a referendum were anybody to propose that that veto be lost and that we should move to a system of qualified majority voting instead. Those safeguards, thanks to this Government, are written into law. If my hon. Friend looks again at the detail of the language in the European Council and Foreign Affairs Council conclusions, he will see a welcome emphasis on the need for the EU to complement NATO and the importance of capabilities. The issue of an EU operational headquarters, which was the cause of a rancorous debate 12 months ago, was not even pursued this year. That is evidence that we are winning the argument on the direction in which the European CSDP should go.