Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Gauke and Michael McCann

Tuesday 14th May 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

Q3. What estimate he has made of the value of the reduction in the additional rate of income tax to 45% to a person earning £1 million a year.

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

The cost of reducing the additional rate of income tax to 45% is estimated at around £100 million per year. That is set out in table 2.2 of Budget 2013. We have not broken down the impacts of income ranges because a significant behavioural response is associated with the additional rate of income tax. The behavioural response is estimated in aggregate and reflected in the costing.

[Mr McCann]

I am grateful for the Minister’s answer, but I can give him the answer to the question I asked: millionaires will get a cut of £42,000 under this Government’s policies. Does he think it right that those in receipt of tax credits are making a bigger financial contribution to the country’s coffers than millionaires?

[Mr Gauke]

Of course that is not true. As the Institute for Fiscal Studies has shown, the biggest contribution to reducing the deficit is coming from the wealthiest 10%. The hon. Gentleman might also wish to ask himself why, when his party was in office, it had a top rate of income tax of 40% for all but 36 days out of 4,758.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Gauke and Michael McCann

Tuesday 12th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Michael McCann (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (Lab)]

T7. My weekend surgeries were dominated by constituents facing backdated payment demands from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, despite the fact that they had discharged their responsibilities and had been assured that their tax affairs were in order. Does the Minister think it is right to put people through financial stress and misery because of HMRC mistakes and staff cuts?

[Mr Gauke]

There was an issue regarding end-of-year reconciliation, which is an errant part of the pay-as-you-earn system. When we came into office, 17 million cases needed to be dealt with. I think that backlog is about to be cleared—we have made great progress. We are reforming the PAYE system so that tax will be collected at the right rate at the right time, and much more accurately than in the past.

Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (Nurseries)

Debate between David Gauke and Michael McCann

Monday 15th October 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

I start by congratulating the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr McCann) on securing this debate and acknowledging his efforts to pursue this issue on behalf of his constituents. I know of the equally determined efforts of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) to represent his constituents, and I also acknowledge the other hon. Members who contributed this evening.

As we are all aware, HMRC’s core purpose is to collect tax and distribute benefits. That is what it was set up to do and where its efforts and resources need to go. Of course, it also has a duty to be a responsible employer to its staff, and I appreciate that the decision to close eight on-site nurseries has been controversial, but this provides an example of the difficult balance that public services often need to strike between their public obligations and their responsibilities to their own staff.

As alluded to by the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow, I am not responsible for the day-to-day management decisions of HMRC, which is a non-ministerial Department, but I am the Minister to whom it is accountable for its core duties, which is why I am responding tonight. For the record, I think that HMRC’s management decision was broadly the right one, although I agree that its execution of that decision could have been better handled and has caused regrettable upset and uncertainty among the parents of the children in the eight nurseries.

The hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow, my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North and other hon. Members have made several important points, and I will deal with them, but it is important to understand why HMRC made the decision it made. As I understand it, the on-site nurseries were originally set up in a small number of locations where Her Majesty’s Customs and Excise and the Inland Revenue were experiencing recruitment difficulties among younger workers. The nurseries helped them to attract and retain parents of young children, at a time when there was no other provision for child care in HMRC’s legacy organisations.

Over the years, the number of these nurseries has declined, and across the eight nurseries that we are discussing, which are run by the private nursery provider, Bright Horizons, there has been a decline in both the take-up of places overall and in the proportion of places used by HMRC staff—I shall return to that point later. In fact, across all eight nurseries, only just over one third of places are currently taken up by HMRC employees. I recognise, however, that this was not the case in East Kilbride and Cardiff, where more than half the spaces were taken up by the children of HMRC staff, as was also the case with the Nottingham site.

HMRC made an operational decision, however, to end and not re-tender the contract for these nurseries, for perfectly understandable reasons. First, in line with Government objectives, HMRC’s estates strategy is to reduce the size of its footprint and either to hand back unwanted space to its landlord or to make more productive use of the estate that it retains.

[Mr McCann]

Will the Minister explain why it is Government policy to waste taxpayers’ money by giving up space that they would then have to continue to pay rent on and leaving custom-built nurseries lying empty when they can be utilised by staff?

[Mr Gauke]

The hon. Gentleman rightly said that we had a meeting about this matter; indeed, Lin Homer was present for that meeting. He should therefore be aware that Lin Homer repeatedly said that it was possible that the site in East Kilbride could be used for other purposes before 2015.

[Mr McCann]

That is not true.

[Mr Gauke]

That is what the hon. Gentleman was told repeatedly in that meeting, but if he is accusing me of saying an untruth or saying that Lin Homer did not say that, I would be grateful to hear it.

[Mr McCann]

I will be absolutely clear: I have given the Minister evidence that I have been given completely misleading information by civil servants in HMRC that was not true from day one. I am further saying to him that the space in East Kilbride will be empty until 2015. That was confirmed to me in a telephone conversation by the chief executive, Lin Homer, on 21 September.

[Mr Gauke]

We are talking about a somewhat hypothetical situation because, as the hon. Gentleman well knows, the site will remain used as a nursery. However, I have to tell him that Lin Homer corrected him on a number of occasions in the meeting we had. She did not say that the site was not going to be used until 2015; what she said was that there were no immediate plans for reuse, although she was not ruling out reuse of the site before 2015, which is a fairly substantial distinction. That is what the hon. Gentleman was told. If he did not understand it, that is regrettable, but that is what he was told repeatedly in that meeting.

To continue, in the 18 months to October 2012, HMRC closed 140 buildings and rationalised a further 44. That has resulted in nearly £47 million of savings annually and reduced HMRC’s estate by around 193,000 square metres—about 16% of its total estate over that period. The spaces left when the nurseries close will be used for HMRC’s core purpose. Retaining space for on-site nurseries simply does not fit into that strategy.

Secondly, given the low nursery occupancy by HMRC staff, the justification for HMRC retaining the eight nurseries is no longer as strong as it was. That is particularly true now that HMRC, like other public sector employers, provides child care vouchers to all eligible staff, which they can use to pay for child care in any nursery they choose. The vouchers cover staff in more than 300 HMRC offices, which is far more than the eight affected by the closure of the nurseries. In making the decision not to re-tender the contract with Bright Horizons, HMRC researched the local areas and was confident that other nurseries had spaces at prices comparable to, and often lower than, those for the places in the Bright Horizons nurseries.

Thirdly, and most importantly in my view, HMRC was providing space to the private sector nursery provider free of both rent and utility bills. I do not believe it is sustainable for a Department, in effect, to provide a direct subsidy to a profitable private company. During these times of austerity, public bodies have a duty to make more productive use of the resources that they are paying for. I believe that HMRC’s decision was the right and responsible one, but I also think it could have gone about it better.

We have heard the criticism that HMRC did not provide sufficient notice to parents. I agree that more notice would have been preferable, but HMRC was honouring the contract between the estates provider and Bright Horizons, and the contracts between Bright Horizons and the parents, which were for three months’ notice. HMRC, in effect, gave Bright Horizons six months’ warning that the contract would end in November 2012, but Bright Horizons chose not to tell parents earlier than the three months’ notice provided for in their contracts. HMRC could have told its own parents earlier, but it might then have been liable for compensation claims from Bright Horizons.

The hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow has made public statements to the effect that HMRC deliberately gave short notice in order to curtail debate. That allegation is inaccurate and unfair. HMRC was, as hon. Members would expect of a public body, seeking to honour the terms of legal contracts. It is also important to observe that Bright Horizons was given time to seek alternative accommodation for its nurseries, but that it made a commercial decision not to relocate and instead to close these eight nurseries. That was not HMRC’s decision: it was down to Bright Horizons. However, it is perfectly understandable, bearing in mind that it would have needed to pay market rent for other properties and that the take-up of places was, I understand, declining.

We have heard questions about why HMRC did not extend the contracts for another year or two, or at least extend contracts in the nurseries with high HMRC occupancy. This was a single contract for all eight nurseries, so it was not possible, within the contract, to extend any individual nursery alone. It was a question of all or none. Also, at the time that the decision was taken, HMRC honestly believed that the contract could not be extended. This was not a contract directly with HMRC, but one between Bright Horizons and HMRC’s landlord, Mapeley. HMRC was not party to all the details. In fact, it later transpired that HMRC’s original belief was incorrect, and that the contract could have been extended by another year for all eight nurseries. But, in any event, at no point did Bright Horizons ask for an extension to the contract, when HMRC opened discussions with it in May 2012.

It is highly regrettable that HMRC did not have all the correct information, but that does not alter the reasons for it wanting to end the on-site nursery provision. Nor does it mean, as the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow has alleged, that a senior HMRC official deliberately misled him. I simply do not see any evidence to support that allegation.

[Mr McCann]

Time is evaporating fast, and I do not want the Minister to finish without having time to answer my direct questions. However, on the point that he has just made, I was provided with reasons on 5 September by Mike Falvey, the chief people officer, yet when I spoke to Lin Homer on 21 September, a completely different reason was given. Can the Minister explain that? Will he also answer the two questions that I put to him in my speech?

[Mr Gauke]

Let me make as much progress as possible. I believe that the letter that the hon. Gentleman received in early September was based on a genuine understanding by HMRC of what the situation was. It related to a contract between Mapeley and Bright Horizons. In his subsequent conversation with the chief executive of HMRC, however, she set out more fully the context and the reasons for making the decision.

I want to turn to the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion that HMRC cannot reuse the nursery space for any other purpose. That is simply not correct. What HMRC cannot and should not do is commit, long term, to giving part of its estate over to nursery provision when it needs the flexibility to use that estate for its core purpose, and when it cannot do that, to negotiate giving it back to its landlord.

Things have moved on since this Adjournment debate was granted, and I think that HMRC has reached a better outcome. It has shown itself to be responsive to staff concerns and to the representations from the hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow and my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North. When staff asked HMRC to consider transitional support, it swiftly put a package of such support in place, including some short-term financial relief for parents facing higher nursery costs and flexible working arrangements to allow parents to search for and settle their children into a new nursery.

HMRC also reopened discussions with Bright Horizons and asked it to consider whether it would enter into a different commercial arrangement at the three nurseries at which HMRC staff accounted for at least half of nursery places, under new contracts. I am pleased that Bright Horizons has agreed to a new and separate temporary lease in East Kilbride and in Cardiff, but it has made it clear that it does not see a commercial case for the third site, in Nottingham. The new lease for East Kilbride and Cardiff will run until August 2015, at which point Bright Horizons would need to relocate the nurseries if it wished to continue. HMRC will not end the lease before that time, although Bright Horizons will be able to close or relocate the nurseries at any point before August 2015, provided that it gives HMRC four months’ notice. That is more than the customary three months’ notice.

I know that this arrangement does not cover all the sites affected, but I believe that it is a sensible outcome. It provides a reasonable package of support for parents affected at all eight nursery sites, and two and a half years’ more nursery provision at Cardiff and East Kilbride. The long-term outcome is the same—