Finance Bill

Debate between David Gauke and David Mowat

Tuesday 28th June 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

We are in quite a fast-moving area, and the progress that has been made in recent months has been considerable. Just at the beginning of this year, it looked unlikely that a deal would be possible, but now it looks as though the EU is heading in that direction. As I have said, the EU Commissioner has said that something is likely to happen by the end of this year. I must add the slight caveat that we will have a new Prime Minister by then, but it is certainly my view that if we have not made progress by this time next year on reaching a multilateral agreement, we will need to look carefully at the issue once again. I do not want to make a full commitment on this because—I am standing here desperately with the Dispatch Box as a source of support—I might no longer be in this position by then. I make that caveat, but I believe that there is every chance of an agreement. I would be disappointed if we did not make progress, but in the event of that happening—I hope it is unlikely—we would need to look at this again. I suspect that there is agreement between us here that it would be better for us to get a multilateral agreement than for us to go off alone.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

I think I have heard the Minister say that there will not be a multilateral agreement that includes the United States. So is it the Government’s position that we do not want to act unilaterally for the UK, but we will act unilaterally within the EU—even if we are not in it—even though the EU itself contains only 20% of the world’s multi- nationals? Is he saying that this does not need to be multilateral, and that it just needs to be EU-lateral?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gauke]

I do not think that this has to be universal, but there would be disadvantages for the UK if we were the only country to do it. There is a sense that UK companies would be criticised for failing to pay very much tax in jurisdictions where they did not have a lot of activities but had a lot of sales. This comes back to the point about educating the public about how corporation tax works. I think it would be an awful lot easier if there were just a few examples of other countries doing this. I do not think it needs to involve every other country, but if, for example, Germany, France and Italy had the same type of system, every time a UK company was criticised we could say, “What about that French company? What about that Italian company? The same principles apply to them.”

We do not have to move at the pace of the slowest, but if we adopt an isolated position on this, there would be a reputational risk for UK businesses. We do not need to run that risk, particularly as good progress is being made, and I urge the House not to accept this amendment. Instead, I hope that we will be able to implement a measure over the next few months.

[David Mowat]

I suppose it depends which multinationals are in which segment of competition, but is the Minister saying that as long as, say, two or three other countries were to do this, the UK would join in?

[Mr Gauke]

I do not want to put a precise number on this. There is a threshold, and it depends on which countries those might be, but if I thought that three or four significant economies were going in the same direction, the case for doing this would be much stronger. Or, to put the reverse argument, if I were standing here next year and two or three other countries had gone down this route, the concerns that I am expressing from the Dispatch Box today would clearly carry less weight than I think they do today.

Tax Avoidance and Multinational Companies

Debate between David Gauke and David Mowat

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

There is a whole host I could draw attention to, but in the interests of time, I will not run through that lengthy list. I have it here, and there are quite a number of cases—there are 40 I can identify straightaway—where there were loopholes, and we have tried to address that.

The diverted profits tax—I will come back to this again in detail in a moment—is designed to ensure that, where companies divert their profits away from the UK, and where the economic activity is happening in the UK, we get some of the tax yield.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

The difficulty with the economic activity test the Minister talks about is that it is intrinsically judgmental, and that gives us many of the issues that we try to grapple with. The test came in in the 1920s, way before the internet. Might it not be a way forward to move more towards taxing sales and, if necessary, dividends, with less on corporation tax, which would take these judgments away?

[Mr Gauke]

The first point to make is that this is a debate on the operation of the tax law as it stands, not on how people might want it to be, and to be fair to HMRC, it can only collect the tax that is due under the law as it stands, not as how people might want it to be. On reform of this area, there is no reason why we should not debate these matters. However, with regard to a move towards taxing profits on the basis of sales—there is a perfectly respectable case for reform in that direction—I would be worried about the impact on, for example, the UK’s creative and scientific sectors. I have mentioned the video games sector, and one could also look at pharmaceuticals. There are a number of areas where the UK—businesses in our constituencies—would lose out in those circumstances, so I would be a little wary about it.

HMRC and Google (Settlement)

Debate between David Gauke and David Mowat

Monday 25th January 2016 Commons Chamber

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

When it is in the public domain that one technique used by Google, Facebook and others is the so-called double Irish arrangement, by which profits in the first instance leave the UK and go to Ireland, is there not more that we can do with our European partners to use state aid rules on countries such as Ireland and Luxembourg, which undermine our tax base in that way?

[Mr Gauke]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. There is a need for international co-operation at an OECD level, which is the principal focus, and at an EU level. He will be aware of action that the European Commission has taken in respect of other member states that have had concerns about state aid.

HMRC Office Closures

Debate between David Gauke and David Mowat

Tuesday 24th November 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

To return to that point, I gave the statistic that 4,000 of the current 58,000 people employed by HMRC will be outside a reasonable daily travel distance by 2027, as HMRC has acknowledged. I am afraid that there will have to be redundancies for those people, assuming that they are still working for HMRC, over the course of that period. I would make the point that the vast majority of HMRC staff—I recognise that this is difficult for those who are not in such a position—will clearly be able to work in the regional centres I have mentioned.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the current level of customer service in HMRC is unacceptable? The speech of the hon. Member for Livingston (Hannah Bardell) would have made sense were it not for the fact that, currently, about 40% of calls are never answered. It is not even that they are answered after 40 minutes; they are never answered. Does he agree that regional centres enabling us to flex the number of staff must form a coherent approach to getting calls answered, which cannot be done with 190 centres?

Tax Avoidance (HSBC)

Debate between David Gauke and David Mowat

Monday 9th February 2015 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

HMRC is essentially performing the same process that has been undertaken for many years, including when the right hon. Gentleman’s party was in office. It is consistent, for example, with the Liechtenstein disclosure facility, which was agreed by the previous Government, the point being that it is the most effective way of getting the tax, the interest and the penalty; of getting the money into the Exchequer; and of changing behaviour. I make no apology for HMRC pursuing that route as the first line, because it has proven to be effective.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

Three years ago, HSBC was fined $2 billion for acting as money launderers for Mexican drug cartels. Those transactions, and those that we are discussing today, both happened before 2010. Is the Financial Secretary confident that the measures we brought in subsequently will stop either case happening again? Has he had a discussion with HSBC regarding continued transgressions of this type and its banking licence?

[Mr Gauke]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. When it comes to banking licences, politicians should perhaps not be directly involved; we have a regulator for that purpose. Ensuring a change of behaviour in our banks is important. We have all been appalled by this behaviour over the last few hours––for some of us, it has been longer. This occurred some years ago, at the same time as we saw banks acting recklessly in a number of ways. It is really important for the banking sector to get its house in order. We know that the reforms we have undertaken as a Government can play an important role in ensuring that happens.

Finance Bill

Debate between David Gauke and David Mowat

Wednesday 2nd July 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

I will do so, Mr Deputy Speaker, because my hon. Friend makes an interesting point. I have set out the definition of touring. We think that the right approach is to use that definition, for the sake of simplicity, rather than to try to come up with something more complicated.

A question was asked about how a business not subject to corporation tax can qualify for relief. The new relief is available only to companies subject to corporation tax: it is a corporation tax relief. As I have said, it is modelled on the successful reliefs that already exist for the creative sector, and it is designed to give the relief to producers while minimising the scope for abuse. The Government recognise that not-for-profit companies make up a valuable and substantial part of the theatre industry, and we are confident that the sector will be able to access the relief without significant additional administrative burdens. A concern was expressed about whether setting up a trading subsidiary is complicated for charities. As I have said, we have tried to minimise complexity, and we have based the relief on what is already in place. We believe that charities will get the support they need.

[David Mowat]

Will the Minister give way?

[David Mowat]

I have, indeed, been here all the time, Mr Deputy Speaker.

The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) asked whether the relief will apply to blockbuster successes, such as “Les Misérables”, on which massive amounts of money are made. Indeed, the return on capital for such ventures is far higher than that for contractors in the North sea. Can the Minister give us any assurance that the relief will not be disproportionately skewed towards such companies?

[Mr Gauke]

The point is that the relief is designed to support the range of theatre productions across the UK, in both the subsidised and commercial sectors. We worked closely with the subsidised sector when developing the policy, and we are confident that it will benefit from the relief.

Let me turn to the points made about measures to deal with tax avoidance schemes, including the accelerated payments regime and follower notices. My hon. Friend the Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) asked whether taxpayers who have not used a true tax avoidance scheme will be caught, perhaps with a precautionary notification having been made under the DOTAS regime. Any unintended consequences for compliant taxpayers will be minimal. Where the taxpayer has used a relief correctly, but a DOTAS disclosure has been triggered, there would not normally be any tax in dispute, and there will therefore be no accelerated payment. If a taxpayer has used a relief largely as intended, but some elements are disputed, then an accelerated payment—if one is required—would be confined to the disputed elements. Let me be clear that the accelerated payment is the amount of tax that the taxpayer can expect to pay if their avoidance fails, taking account of their overall tax position. It is not some arbitrary amount, as has been alleged by those who have tried to discredit the measure.

My hon. Friend asked whether the measure will be retrospective in effect, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley). We had an extensive debate on that point in Committee, and the Committee reached a sensible conclusion, but let me set out the issue again. The measure is not retrospective. The rules about whether the taxpayer’s scheme does or does not work and about the amount of any tax liability will not be changed. The taxpayer would have already paid the money had they not entered an avoidance scheme. The taxpayer can continue to dispute the case, and will be paid back with interest should they win. We are not restricting people’s rights. Prudent taxpayers should recognise that tax avoidance carries a significant risk of not working and that the tax might become payable, so they should make plans for such an outcome.

Annuities for Pensioners

Debate between David Gauke and David Mowat

Tuesday 7th January 2014 Westminster Hall

[Mr Gauke]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. It must be right that we should do all that we can to ensure as much transparency for consumers as possible. That includes a number of aspects, some of which I have mentioned. Let me go further.

The code and other measures will only be as successful as the outcomes that they prompt. We want clear evidence that more people are making active, better choices about their retirement income as a result of the changes. If we do not, we will not hesitate to consider further action. In addition to the ongoing work to help consumers make better choices, the FCA is currently conducting a thematic review of the annuities market and how well it is working to serve consumers’ interests, a pricing survey of all annuity providers and a comparison of the rates available to consumers through a range of distribution channels. The review will consider whether firms create barriers that can restrict consumers from shopping around, and what risks and potential for detriment those barriers may present for consumers. I look forward to the report’s initial findings, which will be published next month.

Although it is imperative that the annuity market works in the consumer’s interests as an effective option for retirement income, it is important to consider the retirement income market as a whole to ensure that consumers have income flexibility in retirement. To increase flexibility, the Government have removed both the default retirement age and the effective requirement to purchase an annuity by age 75. Whether they annuitise or not, individuals are permitted to take 25% of their accumulated pension savings as a tax-free lump sum before going on to secure an income with the remaining savings. To ensure that that income can best serve retirees’ needs, the Government have reformed the capped draw-down rules and raised the annual withdrawal limit from 100% to 120% of the value of an equivalent annuity. That can help to raise the retirement incomes of individuals in draw-down arrangements who may recently have experienced reductions in income due to wider economic conditions.

There is additional flexibility for those with a guaranteed income of at least £20,000 a year. With income already secured, they have the option of a flexible draw-down arrangement, in which they can withdraw any amount from their pension pot. Those coming to retirement will benefit from having more flexibility in deciding how to provide an income for themselves in retirement, and for those with small pension pots, the Government have taken steps to reform the trivial commutation pensions tax rules. An individual who is aged 60 or over with total pension savings of less than £18,000 can withdraw the entirety of their savings as a lump sum. The first 25% of that lump sum is normally tax-free, with the remainder taxable as income. In addition, small occupational pension pots under £2,000, and up to two small personal pension pots under £2,000, can be taken as a lump sum for those aged 60 or over, even when people have savings in excess of the aggregate limit. All those options add flexibility.

Having a decent retirement income is driven by two factors: saving enough for retirement through working life, and making good choices at retirement to secure a reliable and maintainable income throughout retirement. It is important to remember that the biggest determinant of how much income someone receives in retirement is how much they have saved during their working life. With the introduction of auto-enrolment, the Government have taken a huge step forward towards ensuring that consumers start to save for their retirement and carry on saving throughout their working life. Auto-enrolment is the most important pensions change for a century—around 6 million to 9 million people will make new savings and increase savings for their retirement. It is estimated that that will generate around £11 billion in extra pension saving by 2020, which will mean an extra £11 billion coming to the retirement income market within the next six years and a new wave of retirees with robust defined contribution pension pots, making it all the more important that we ensure that the retirement income market is working effectively.

The Government are also acting to protect those valuable savings. We recently consulted on proposals to cap pension charges and introduce a range of transparency measures as a means of ensuring that savings are not eroded by charges. We are currently assessing the responses to the consultation and an announcement will be made when that work is completed.

[David Mowat]

The Minister is right that the Government are consulting on pension charges. I have two questions for him. First, have the Government given any thought to annuity charges and to capping them? Secondly, approximately what level of charge does he believe is reasonable on an annuity of £100,000 during the lifetime of that annuity?

[Mr Gauke]

I suspect that my hon. Friend will not be surprised to learn that I am not inclined to be drawn into specifying what I believe is a reasonable charge for an annuity. What I will say to him—I will expand on this in a moment—is that we want to ensure that the annuities market works. We want to ensure that there are competitive pressures in that market. In the light of the consultation that we have undertaken on pension charges, the work undertaken by the FCA and the analysis of the evidence that has already emerged on the ABI code of conduct and so on, we want to ensure that the spotlight remains on the market, so that we do everything we can to ensure that it works effectively for consumers.

We are committed to ensuring that consumers have access to retirement income options that provide a reliable and decent income throughout retirement. That is an agenda to which ministerial colleagues in the Treasury and the Department for Work and Pensions and I are committed. We are working together to ensure that consumers have appropriate options, value for money and support when they come to turn their hard-earned pension savings into a retirement income. As the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), who has responsibility for pensions, has recently suggested,reforms will be considered in the context of that work. That is why the Treasury and the DWP are currently considering the broad range of research and evidence on decumulation and how the market is working—to explore the impacts and interactions between market and consumer behaviour and Government policy.

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester for securing and opening this debate. It has allowed us to discuss important annuities issues that are crucial for consumers if they are to secure the best from their savings at retirement.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between David Gauke and David Mowat

Tuesday 24th April 2012 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

It is not flimsy evidence; it is evidence that shows two different models. It is consistent with the academic literature in this area, and it is supported as a central and reasonable estimate by Robert Chote, head of the Office for Budget Responsibility and former head of the IFS.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

9. What assessment he has made of the effect of energy costs on the Government’s growth strategy.

Scotland Bill

Debate between David Gauke and David Mowat

Tuesday 21st June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

Yes, that is the case, but we must consider the consequences of that borrowing for the UK’s debt position. That is the level that we believe is right.

As I set out in Committee, the £2.2 billion represents a floor, not a ceiling. The Bill provides for the limit to be increased to more than £2.2 billion with the approval of the House, but not for it to be reduced to less than £2.2 billion.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

A few moments ago, the Minister mentioned the pre-payment amount for the Forth road bridge. Did the Treasury consider a toll on that bridge, in much the same way as a toll was considered for the Mersey Gateway bridge next to my constituency? If not, is that not asymmetric governance?

[Mr Gauke]

The decision on whether to put a toll on the Forth road bridge will be one for the Scottish Government. The Treasury has therefore not considered that proposal. Perhaps my hon. Friend should ask Scottish National party Members what consideration was given to such a toll. I suspect that the answer will be, “Not a lot.” The expression on the face of the hon. Member for Dundee East (Stewart Hosie) is probably confirmation that no consideration was given to my hon. Friend’s suggestion. Asymmetry is inherent in such devolved matters.

The UK Parliament has an interest in ensuring that Scottish Ministers can borrow efficiently and sustainably, because although interest paid on any loans will be funded from within the Scottish budget, it will be included in the UK fiscal aggregates.

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr Gauke]

The Government understand the concerns expressed about the devolved funding arrangements, but we have also made it clear that the priority now must be to reduce the deficit, and any change to the current system and Barnett formula must await the stabilisation of the public finances. The Bill does not rule out or rule in reform of the formula in the future, but we do not believe that now is the right time. A change in the Barnett formula is not the purpose of the Bill, and it would not be appropriate to legislate for it here. As I said, I look forward to this debate, as right hon. and hon. Members will clearly take the opportunity presented by the Bill to express their views on this particular point.

[David Mowat]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Gauke]

And I know that there is one hon. Member in particular who will take that opportunity.

[David Mowat]

I understand that the Exchequer Secretary does not want to spend too long now talking about the Barnett formula, so I will be quick. He said that we are too busy sorting out the deficit to address the Barnett formula, which I think is a fair and reasonable point. That is why many of us think that we should put in place a process to ensure that by 2015, when, as I understand it, the structural deficit will be eliminated, we can put in place a fair and transparent policy.

[Mr Gauke]

I understand the views expressed by my hon. Friend. There are a number of changes and developments in this area, not least the powers in the Bill. I agree with him that this will continue to be a live issue, but at this stage I am not in a position to make any promises to him. However, I am sure that this issue will continue to be debated, and strong views will be expressed. I can understand the points he makes, but this is not the time for a legislative solution.

Amendment 23, tabled by the right hon. Member for Birkenhead, is consequential on new clause 8 and would delay the financial provisions in part 3 of the Bill coming into force until two months after the House passes a resolution approving the Chancellor’s proposals for a new funding formula. It would then automatically bring part 3 into force two months after such a resolution. I set out why I did not consider it appropriate to debate at this time a new funding formula for Scotland when I discussed new clause 8. The Government are clear that this is a UK-wide administrative procedure and therefore has no place in the Bill. The Government’s priority is to stabilise the public finances and reduce the deficit before making any changes to the Barnett formula, as I have said.

Even were we able to accept new clause 8, the manner of commencement set out would be problematic because it would create technical problems by potentially bringing in consequential amendments relating to the Scottish variable rate before that itself had been repealed. I am sure that that is not what the right hon. Gentleman intends. The new clause would have other consequences, however. It would mean that clause 32, on borrowing provisions, could not be brought into force until an agreement had been reached on a new funding formula for Scotland. As I have set out, the changes introduced by the Bill are not contingent on a new funding formula being agreed to replace the Barnett formula, so I do not see the need to wait to introduce the borrowing clauses until such a new formula has been agreed.

Amendments 25 and 37, and new clauses 9 and 19, relate to corporation tax and alcohol duties. These amendments propose to increase the power in the Bill to provide for an Order in Council specifying corporation tax and alcohol duties as devolved duties. The Scottish Government have publicly requested that six additional powers be included in the Bill, including powers over corporation tax and alcohol duties. I understand that the First Minister has met colleagues in the Government to highlight those requests. In those meetings, the First Minister agreed to provide detailed written analysis of the benefits to both Scotland and the UK of devolving those powers. No such papers have yet been provided. We await them with interest, because we have yet to hear the case made in detail.

As hon. Members will recall, the Government are committed to implementing the recommendations of the Calman commission, which considered the merits of devolution for a wide range of taxes and decided that neither corporation tax nor alcohol duties were suitable candidates for devolution. Calman concluded that the potential administrative impact of devolving either tax would be significant. The creation of compliance costs for businesses operating on either side of the border, as well as the increased collection costs for the Government, would be undesirable, especially in the present economic climate. The risks of tax avoidance and arbitrage could also be increased, with additional costs to the Government and the UK Exchequer. These arguments apply to both corporation tax and alcohol duties.

Calman also noted that if comparable levels of public services were to be maintained, the scope for substantive reductions in the rate of corporation tax in Scotland would be limited, unless the Scottish Government were willing significantly to increase revenues from other sources, such as income tax. The figures involved could be significant. For instance, if we take the Scottish Government’s estimate of the corporation tax base, published in their “Government Expenditure and Revenue Scotland” report, and apply the methodologies developed for the Government’s paper on rebalancing the Northern Ireland economy, the cost of reducing Scottish corporation tax to 12.5%—the current rate in the Republic of Ireland—would be just over £2 billion. However, the Scottish economy is very different, not least in the presence of many large multinationals, particularly from the financial sector, whose current activity is unlikely to be adequately covered in the gross value added estimate, but whose profits are additionally likely to be attributable to Scotland with regard to corporation tax.

Provisional HMRC analysis has indicated that losing payments from large Scottish-domiciled groups could add £600 million to the direct costs. Such tax cuts would have to be funded, either by significantly reduced levels of public spending in Scotland or by tax rises in other areas. It is worth noting that these are initial estimates, and are likely significantly to underestimate the scope for profit shifting to Scotland. The model uses similar assumptions to those applied to the costing for Northern Ireland. However, given the geographic proximity of England and Scotland, the integrated infrastructure, the large number of big GB-owned groups with a substantive presence on both sides of the border, and the relatively large and complex nature of the Scottish economy, there are likely to be greater opportunities for groups to shift profits there than may be the case for Northern Ireland.

In addition, corporation tax is a very volatile tax, and would create much more revenue risk for the Scottish budget. For instance, corporate tax receipts fell by 16% from 2008-09 to 2009-10, while income tax receipts fell by 5%. Such a large volatile income stream would place great risk on the Scottish budget. Income tax, which is more predictable and less volatile, is a much more suitable candidate for devolution. The commission based its decision on the strong evidence that it received from the independent expert group and the alcohol retailing and production sector. The evidence identified increased compliance costs and significant scope for tax avoidance, given the mobility of goods such as beer, wine, cider and spirits.

National Insurance Contributions Bill

Debate between David Gauke and David Mowat

Thursday 13th January 2011 Commons Chamber

[Mr Gauke]

My hon. Friend is right, and that is why we are acting on a regional basis.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

I want to respond to the point about Tatton. Many of my constituents work in Tatton, yet parts of Warrington are extremely deprived. Perhaps Labour Members will explain how publishing numbers specifically for Tatton would identify the impact on the deprived areas of my constituency next door.

[Mr Gauke]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. He brings a great deal of business experience to the subject. Trying to pick out individual constituencies in the way in which the right hon. Member for Delyn intends will add little to our understanding of the operation of the scheme, but, as a Government, we are keen to put out more information and to make the scheme transparent.