Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Twenty-seventh sitting)

Debate between Daniel Francis and Marie Tidball

Committee stage
Wednesday 19th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Tidball]

I take on board and appreciate my hon. Friend’s point. I hope he will agree that subsection (3) emphasises the purpose of the new clause, which is that it should apply across the spectrum of access to assistance and enable people to effectively understand and engage with all of the provisions in the Bill. I very much wanted to ensure that it would apply and be accessible at every stage.

[Daniel Francis]

My hon. Friend knows my concerns but she knows that I will be supporting the amendment this evening.

Advocates must have an understanding of the available end-of-life options and be able to communicate clearly and explain to patients the medical treatments available: palliative care, social care and assisted death. That is quite complex. As I have said previously, my own experience of mental capacity relates to my daughter: she would never have the capacity to be able to make such a decision. But on a daily basis, including this morning, I have to explain a two or three-point decision-making process. It is vital that advocates are there and that they have the training.

For many people such as my daughter, who is almost blind as well as being learning disabled, there are additional communication skills given that they have those extra sensory difficulties. It is vital for people such as Mrs Cook’s daughter, who might be vulnerable to influence, that the advocate must be able to explain all the options clearly without pressurising the person down one route. I believe the amendment will provide important support to those with less capacity or difficulty in understanding all the options in front of them.

As I have said, the two things that I have banged on about consistently in this process have been about learning disability and mental capacity. There has been a conflict for me, even with this amendment, but I am confident that the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge comes from a very good place. We will come to this next week but, like my hon. Friend, I have consistently listened to Mencap’s evidence, which also talked about reviewing the Bill at an earlier stage than is currently envisaged. That is why I have tabled amendments 493, 494 and 495 for next week.

My view is that if the Bill becomes law, the system will work well if the regulations are implemented correctly. I will support the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge; I thank her for bringing it forward. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley has listened hard, and I am grateful. I think there will be a degree of unanimity this evening.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Eighteenth sitting)

Debate between Daniel Francis and Marie Tidball

Committee stage
Wednesday 5th March 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Daniel Francis (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Lab)]

I rise to speak to the amendments in my name—namely, new clause 12 and amendments 336, 337 and 335. Yesterday, we spoke about the evidence we received from the British Medical Association. I accept that there is some crossover between my amendments and the amendments of the Bill’s promoter, my hon. Friend the Member for Spen Valley, on training.

The British Medical Association stated, with regard to my amendments:

“We strongly urge MPs to support these amendments which would define the ‘training’ explicitly in the Bill as specialised training to provide assisted dying, undertaken by those who opt in…We have been vocal that the Bill should be based on an opt-in model…during the Committee’s oral evidence sessions. Reinforcing this, we believe NC12 and Amendments 335-337 would make two important aspects of this provision in the Bill clearer:

1. That providing assisted dying is not, and would not in the future, be expected of all doctors—the Bill’s current all-encompassing reference simply to ‘training’ does not preclude this training being prescribed as standard general medical training via the regulations, in which case it would apply to all doctors and make the opt-in redundant. Specifying that it is ‘specialised’ training on the face of the Bill, and making clear that there is no obligation on doctors to undergo the training, would safeguard the opt-in model in the Bill’s first principles.

2. That only those who undergo specialised, tailored training on assisted dying could provide the service – during the oral evidence sessions, there has been much discussion about the importance of specialised training for those who opt in to carry out the service. Specialised training for those providing the service is essential for doctors and provides additional protection and safeguards for patients—it should be explicitly referenced in the Bill.”

We heard in our oral evidence sessions from others, including Dr Ahmedzai, on the need for training. He said:

“I personally believe that it would be advantageous if there was formal training, as Dr Clarke has mentioned, specifically to have the kinds of conversations that we now talk about, such as about psychological issues and suicidal tendencies.”––[Official Report, Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Public Bill Committee, 28 January 2025; c. 69, Q82.]

I now turn to two amendments in my name: amendment 340 and amendment (a) to amendment 186. Both amendments relate to training for those with learning disabilities and autism. We had a similar discussion on a previous clause, and I know that further amendments are likely to be tabled on the matter, but as I said yesterday, they are not currently on the amendment paper.

I heard and welcome what my hon. Friend the Member for Luton South and South Bedfordshire has said about amendment 20. Putting that training in the Bill is hugely important, and I believe the same is true in relation to training for those with learning disabilities and autism, as set out in to amendments 340 and amendment (a) to amendment 186, particularly given my concerns and those of others about whether we end up with clause 3 relating to the Mental Capacity Act 2005.

[Dr Marie Tidball (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)]

I thank my hon. Friend for his amendments, and I agree with their principle. My concern is that, again, people with mental disorders are left out. Does he agree that, if there were a way to amend the Bill later so that they could be incorporated in these proposals, that would be a positive step forward?

[Daniel Francis]

I would welcome that as a positive step forward—I think there is probably still some work to do in that regard. My hon. Friend and I will have conversations on the wording of that future amendment, but at the moment we are discussing the amendments that stand before us. Any future amendments that may be tabled are not for us currently to consider.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Tidball]

As my hon. Friend knows, I have a great deal of respect for him, so I gently say that if he brings forward similar amendments later in the Bill, I would be delighted to talk to him and I ask him to include mental disorders.

[Daniel Francis]

I hear that, and I think my hon. Friend and I are on the same page on many of these matters. I think there were some drafting issues when I discussed amendments with Mencap at an earlier stage.

I commend to the Committee the six amendments in my name in this group: new clause 12 and amendments 336, 337, 335, 340 and amendment (a) to amendment 186.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Daniel Francis and Marie Tidball

Wednesday 29th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Tidball]

Q Thank you. That is extremely helpful. Clause 2(3)(a) and 2(3)(b) cover the point that you made about those groups, stating:

“For the avoidance of doubt, a person is not to be considered to be terminally ill”

just by those statuses.

I am very interested to hear about the implementation taskforce. I am personally keen that if the Bill passes into law, we monitor the impact on disabled people on an ongoing basis. Do you have any recommendations for how we can ensure that disabled people have a strong voice in that process, to keep the provisions in check and understand the impact, if any, on the culture within the NHS and other services?

Dr Mewett: Only that if there is an implementation taskforce—most legislation requires an implementation period; in our case, it was 18 months—a strong disability advocate is involved in it.

Dr McLaren: It would be to plant the seed of funding for research throughout the implementation and early stages of voluntary assisted dying legislation. Conducting qualitative research particularly in this area would be very revealing, to understand not only everyone’s reasons for applying for voluntary assisted dying but also those of marginalised groups and whether there are any other factors influencing their decisions.

That also extends to research conducted in culturally and linguistically diverse populations. We have a concern about health awareness, and particularly that what we affectionately call our gag clause—whereby our medical practitioners are not able to initiate conversations with patients about voluntary assisted dying—unfairly disadvantages people from culturally and linguistically diverse populations and those who have lower levels of health literacy in accessing information about the care available to them and their health options. We feel that that comes mainly from discussions with general practitioners. Not allowing those general practitioners to discuss the options with them certainly does not do them any favours.

Dr Fellingham: Both my colleagues have made excellent points that I was going to make. I think they have covered it very well.

[Daniel Francis (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Lab)]

Q Yesterday, we heard from some clinicians from the USA, who outlined how they have reviewed the scheme in practice. They said that their waiting period between the two clinician appointments has been reduced from 14 days to 48 hours, and that in some cases the second clinician has been removed and replaced by a nurse practitioner. Have you undertaken a similar review? Have you made any changes as a result?

Dr McLaren: We are undergoing our review at the moment. It was meant to commence after the first five years of operation of the Voluntary Assisted Dying Act in Victoria. That review has yet to be tabled or published. Certainly, the recommendations that we have submitted to it involve reducing or removing the so-called grace period, or waiting period. My experience, and that of an almost homogeneous group of practitioners, is that patients serve their own lock-out periods, grace periods and periods of reflection, as I believe you have called them, before applying. Subsequently, there are several logistical pauses throughout the process, which also instigate their own grace periods. The addition of further periods for reflection is, I think, superfluous and unnecessary.

Secondary to that, in all our Bills and Acts, we have an ability to bypass those waiting periods. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I did not see the capability to bypass any of those in your current Bill. If the person has a prognosis of less than seven days, they should be able to be expedited and not serve that time. I do not see the purpose of putting extra time on these people to apply for this.

I always say that people do not know that they have six months to live until they have six weeks to live. We as oncologists do not know that either. In a matter of one CT scan, we can change a person’s prognosis from 18 months to three months. All of a sudden, they start thinking about how they see their life ending, and then they have to engage in a process of application. Out of that three-month period, it might take a month to apply. My recommendation has always been to increase the prognostic eligibility criteria from six months to 12 months and to remove waiting periods, which patients will place on themselves regardless of the legislative requirements.

Terminally Ill Adults (End of Life) Bill (Fourth sitting)

Debate between Daniel Francis and Marie Tidball

Committee stage
Wednesday 29th January 2025 Public Bill Committees

[Dr Tidball]

Q Thank you. That is extremely helpful. Clause 2(3)(a) and 2(3)(b) cover the point that you made about those groups, stating:

“For the avoidance of doubt, a person is not to be considered to be terminally ill”

just by those statuses.

I am very interested to hear about the implementation taskforce. I am personally keen that if the Bill passes into law, we monitor the impact on disabled people on an ongoing basis. Do you have any recommendations for how we can ensure that disabled people have a strong voice in that process, to keep the provisions in check and understand the impact, if any, on the culture within the NHS and other services?

Dr Mewett: Only that if there is an implementation taskforce—most legislation requires an implementation period; in our case, it was 18 months—a strong disability advocate is involved in it.

Dr McLaren: It would be to plant the seed of funding for research throughout the implementation and early stages of voluntary assisted dying legislation. Conducting qualitative research particularly in this area would be very revealing, to understand not only everyone’s reasons for applying for voluntary assisted dying but also those of marginalised groups and whether there are any other factors influencing their decisions.

That also extends to research conducted in culturally and linguistically diverse populations. We have a concern about health awareness, and particularly that what we affectionately call our gag clause—whereby our medical practitioners are not able to initiate conversations with patients about voluntary assisted dying—unfairly disadvantages people from culturally and linguistically diverse populations and those who have lower levels of health literacy in accessing information about the care available to them and their health options. We feel that that comes mainly from discussions with general practitioners. Not allowing those general practitioners to discuss the options with them certainly does not do them any favours.

Dr Fellingham: Both my colleagues have made excellent points that I was going to make. I think they have covered it very well.

[Daniel Francis (Bexleyheath and Crayford) (Lab)]

Q Yesterday, we heard from some clinicians from the USA, who outlined how they have reviewed the scheme in practice. They said that their waiting period between the two clinician appointments has been reduced from 14 days to 48 hours, and that in some cases the second clinician has been removed and replaced by a nurse practitioner. Have you undertaken a similar review? Have you made any changes as a result?

Dr McLaren: We are undergoing our review at the moment. It was meant to commence after the first five years of operation of the Voluntary Assisted Dying Act in Victoria. That review has yet to be tabled or published. Certainly, the recommendations that we have submitted to it involve reducing or removing the so-called grace period, or waiting period. My experience, and that of an almost homogeneous group of practitioners, is that patients serve their own lock-out periods, grace periods and periods of reflection, as I believe you have called them, before applying. Subsequently, there are several logistical pauses throughout the process, which also instigate their own grace periods. The addition of further periods for reflection is, I think, superfluous and unnecessary.

Secondary to that, in all our Bills and Acts, we have an ability to bypass those waiting periods. Forgive me if I am wrong, but I did not see the capability to bypass any of those in your current Bill. If the person has a prognosis of less than seven days, they should be able to be expedited and not serve that time. I do not see the purpose of putting extra time on these people to apply for this.

I always say that people do not know that they have six months to live until they have six weeks to live. We as oncologists do not know that either. In a matter of one CT scan, we can change a person’s prognosis from 18 months to three months. All of a sudden, they start thinking about how they see their life ending, and then they have to engage in a process of application. Out of that three-month period, it might take a month to apply. My recommendation has always been to increase the prognostic eligibility criteria from six months to 12 months and to remove waiting periods, which patients will place on themselves regardless of the legislative requirements.