Herbal Medicine (Regulation)

Debate between Dan Poulter and Peter Bone

Tuesday 9th July 2013 Westminster Hall

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone, for, I believe, the first time. I am sure that you were salivating, listening to the issues raised in the debate—

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

Order. I want to make it clear to the Minister that when I sit in this Chair, I have no views on anything.

[Dr Poulter]

Indeed, Mr Bone, as you say, you have no views on anything when you are impartially chairing the debate, but I am sure you pay keen interest to the topics raised, in your position as Chair and otherwise.

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth (David Tredinnick) for securing the debate, which I am sure is of interest to the consumers and practitioners who use herbal medicines, as well as to the many Members who attended the debate today. None of us disagree with the principles articulated here—we can all sign up to them—but good government is about working through the practicalities of proposals to ensure that they become good laws, as I will discuss later.

There have been many good and worthy contributions to the debate. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) showed his strong support for herbal practitioners in his constituency, and he was right to say that things in Government do not happen in a flash but have to be properly thought through. I want to reassure him that some of the products he mentioned—he talked about the benefits of vitamin E, for example—are freely available from herbal practitioners, and indeed from pharmacists and other places.

There were other strong contributions from my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), who is no longer in his seat, and the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey). The hon. Lady made her case eloquently, and I would be happy to meet with her at a later date to discuss sports therapists further, but I would not wish to intrude on Mr Bone’s patience by talking about the issue today and I hope she will forgive me for that.

I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth for his principled and long-standing support for herbal practitioners and his interest in alternative therapies, homeopathy and many other such issues. Today he has demonstrated his extensive knowledge of the topic under debate, and of alternative therapies in general. I am sure I am right in saying that he is the most informed Member of Parliament on many of these issues, and it is a great tribute to him that he has secured the debate today. I am sure that herbal practitioners and alternative therapists would wish to pay tribute to his great work and his advocacy on their behalf, and on behalf of his constituents.

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the chief medical officer’s challenge about the future of antibiotics, but we can make a clear distinction between those remarks and the subject of today’s debate. I am sure that the chief medical officer would not wish her remarks to be associated with a call for a greater use of herbal medicine—that was clearly not outlined in her paper. Although it is important that we always consider ways—via traditional medical routes or otherwise—of improving people’s health and providing the right therapies, the paper clearly laid out the long-standing challenges as being about antibiotic resistance, and it would be wrong, therefore, to allow the two issues to be confused.

By way of background, it is worth highlighting that although we support patient choice some herbal products have caused harm to consumers. There are a number of reasons why that might happen: the herb may be intrinsically toxic; the product may be accidentally or purposefully contaminated by harmful materials or heavy metals; people may choose herbal products for serious conditions when medicines with a solid evidence base would be more appropriate; and, if herbal products are taken together with conventional medicines, the interactions may be unpredictable. It is right, therefore, that we support the responsible use of medicines and have a licensing system.

Directive 2004/24/EC on traditional herbal medicinal products was introduced to harmonise the European Union internal market and remove barriers to free movement. The directive deals with products manufactured on an industrial scale, and makes all operators in the market comply with the same set of rules, facilitates free movement and ensures increased product safety, which, I am sure we agree, has a positive impact on patient safety and public health.

The question of whether herbalists and traditional Chinese medical practitioners should be statutorily regulated has been debated since the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee first reported on the matter in 2000. The hon. Member for Vauxhall and my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth outlined in their remarks that there is a lot of background and history. The previous Government grappled with the issues, and the current Government are also considering how to address and fulfil the commitments made by the previous Health Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley). Hon. Members will be aware that on 16 February 2011 the Government announced their intention to take forward the regulation of herbal medicine practitioners and traditional Chinese medicine practitioners, specifically with regard to the use of third-party products in their practice.

Herbal products broadly fall into three categories. The first are the 310 herbal medicines that already have a marketing authorisation or a traditional herbal registration—in other words, a product licence. Those 310 medications are currently available for use and are effectively licensed. They are safe and widely used, and have undergone all relevant testing and checks. The second category, which is the one we are addressing today, covers products manufactured by a third party. Such products have been illegal since April 2011, following the implementation of the EU directive. The third category is products made up by a practitioner on their own premises following an individual consultation. Although such products are not affected by the directive, some of the herbal ingredients may be restricted by the Human Medicines Regulations 2012.

The previous Health Secretary’s concerns about the second category—products manufactured by a third party—prompted the decision to take forward statutory regulation of such products. The Government’s intention was to allow regulated herbal practitioners lawfully to source third-party manufactured herbal medicines, with appropriate safeguards in place to minimise the risks associated with the products, but since April 2011 the European directive has made it illegal for herbal practitioners in the UK to source such products for their patients.

Following the EU judgment in the case of the Commission v. Poland, which my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering mentioned, we have reassessed the risks. That case actually concerned unlicensed conventional medicines being used because they were cheaper, and although there is a clear distinction between those products and herbal remedies we had to look at what else the judgment said. It looked at the specials regime and, critically, it emphasised how strictly the regime must be applied. The judgment has a knock-on effect for what we propose for the use of herbal medicines manufactured by third parties without a licence, and it therefore needs careful consideration because there is a very high risk that we would be found to be in infraction of the European directive. We therefore need to consider further herbal products manufactured by a third party, and I will return to that point later.

The Government would, of course, like to find a way through the issue that supports responsible businesses and ensures public safety. Since the announcement in February 2011, the Department of Health has been working with officials in the devolved Administrations and with the Health and Care Professions Council to establish a statutory register for herbal practitioners. Alongside that, we have been considering a strengthened system for regulating medicinal products, to enable consumers to have access to a greater range of third-party manufactured herbal medicines. The process continues to be complex and lengthy, and it has been further complicated by the judgment in the European Union v. Poland case.

We acknowledge that there is strong support from some groups of herbal practitioners for the statutory regulation of the sector, but not all practitioners are in favour. I am sure, therefore, that hon. Members will appreciate that it would be irresponsible for the Government to undertake to alter the status of a group of workers without first ensuring that the policy and final decision offered an appropriate form of regulation and ensured that the proposals adequately addressed the risks posed to consumers of third-party manufactured herbal medicines.

As I stated earlier, complex issues are involved. We are discussing how to ensure that our proposals are fit for purpose and proportionate, and that they properly protect the public. I want to assure the hon. Member for Vauxhall that the matter has not been dropped. We absolutely support the principles outlined by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire in his written ministerial statement to the House, and I fully appreciate that the delay is causing anxiety and concern to practitioners of herbal medicine and to consumers.

To ensure that we take forward the matter effectively, we want to bring together experts and interested parties from all sides of the debate to form a working group that will gather evidence and consider all the viable options in more detail, particularly because of the Polish case. I am aware of the concerns of my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth about making timely progress, and I would therefore very much welcome his direct involvement in the working group to ensure that the interests of practitioners are properly looked after. We can meet when the House returns to work out how to take forward the proposal.

I hope that my commitment to setting up a working group will reassure my hon. Friend and all hon. Members that the Government are carefully considering this important issue. We recognise and agree with the principles, but the practicalities are such that we must have legislation that is fit for purpose—that does not trigger infraction proceedings from the European Union, but protects the public. That is vital in all health care matters, whether in relation to traditional medicines or to herbal medicines and alternative therapies. For that reason, we want to set up a working group and to work with my hon. Friend, and herbalists and others, to ensure that the legislation is fit for purpose. I look forward to discussing that with him in due course.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Poulter]

We need to sit down together. I very much want to involve my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth, and the hon. Lady would be very welcome to join that discussion when the House returns. The idea is to get a working party up and running in the early autumn to ensure that we progress matters. We obviously need to discuss issues raised today about statutory regulation and third-party manufactured products, and to look at such products in detail to see which might be classified as more akin to food additives or vitamin and mineral supplements and which as more akin to medications, because there is a spectrum. We need to work through such issues to make sure that we get to the right place.

It is important that any legislation not only passes the test of principle—we are all signed up to it—but is practical and fit for purpose. Particularly in light of the judgment in the case of the EU Commission v. Poland, we have other issues to consider that make the matter a little more complex. I reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Bosworth and the hon. Member for Vauxhall that we are committed to making timely progress, and when we meet on our return in September, we can progress things. I am sure that my hon. Friend’s involvement will keep the Government keen to their task.

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

I thank hon. Members for taking the time for an absolutely splendid debate.

Rail (East Anglia)

Debate between Dan Poulter and Peter Bone

Tuesday 3rd July 2012 Westminster Hall

[Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

Many key points have already been touched on, and we have heard a lot from hon. Members about the historical under-investment in the East Anglian rail network. We heard in a well articulated speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) that although fares continue to increase, the reliability of the service continues to be a problem, and there has been consistently poor value for money for passengers who use the line.

[Mr Peter Bone in the Chair]

My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) rightly highlighted the fact that if we want a first-class business environment in the east of England and East Anglia, we need first-class infrastructure. We are pleased with the strong Government support for investment in high-speed broadband in rural areas in Suffolk, Norfolk, Essex and other counties, but a key part of a first-rate business infrastructure involves a first-class railway. That is important for agriculture, life sciences, retail and the tourism industry, which is growing throughout our region. It is also vital for every passenger who uses the railways in East Anglia on a daily—or in some cases weekly—basis; we have seen a growing number of passengers throughout our region.

It is a pleasure to serve for the first time under your chairmanship, Mr Bone, and I, too, congratulate my neighbour and hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) on securing the debate. I want briefly to highlight three key issues. We can all talk about important stations and branch lines in our constituencies. I have one station in my constituency—Westerfield—but I will not talk about it today. That does not mean that the station and those who use it are not important, but we need to highlight the key considerations. Improving the great eastern main line will benefit every branch line and station that comes off it. The Government have already listened to that key message, and we are grateful.

Commuters have suffered from lack of reliability on the service. My constituents who use the railways in East Anglia tell me that if they could have one thing, it would be a more reliable service that does not break down but ensures that people get to where they are going on time. That is vital for businesses and for each and every passenger on a daily basis. The lack of reliability of railways in East Anglia has undermined the service that they provide to their passengers. At the heart of the prospectus launched this week is a request that before we see increases in speed, reliability of the service must be the priority.

A key part of improving reliability involves improving capacity, and the prospectus rightly outlines the need for additional track capacity, particularly on the great eastern main line. As my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) highlighted earlier in the debate, we must ensure that businesses are supported correctly and that more track capacity is freed up on the Felixstowe to Nuneaton freight rail link, which is an important part of this debate. As the prospectus highlighted, if we want to support businesses in East Anglia, a first-class rail link between the midlands—one of the manufacturing engine rooms of the British economy—and Felixstowe, which takes 46% of the UK’s container traffic, is vital.

Furthermore, in terms of the passenger arguments that we are advocating today and the increased reliability of service, it is not desirable for freight to travel from the midlands into London and then back out, as happens at the moment. That slows down the passage of freight and is bad for business, but it also clogs up passenger capacity on the lines, which would be much better used to support improved reliability—a more reliable passenger service. Therefore, a key part of the rail prospectus is about ensuring not just that business is supported through the Felixstowe-Nuneaton freight rail link, but that there is recognition of the importance of that link to the passenger service. I am talking about the freeing up of passenger capacity on the rest of the rail network in East Anglia and particularly on the great eastern main line.

The primary issues are reliability of service and capacity, but it is also desirable to increase, where possible, the speed of service. However, we will get a faster service only if we deal with reliability and capacity as the first priorities. Reliability and capacity improvements will of course lead to greater train speed. If we want to achieve Norwich in 90, Ipswich in 60 and all the other key considerations, the only way we can do so is by focusing on reliability and capacity of service.

All the MPs present at the debate are very grateful for the support that the Department has given us in our fight for improved rail services in our own constituencies, but all of us are also aware that the issue is much bigger than any individual station or branch line. It is about improving the overall reliability and capacity of the service in East Anglia, with a focus—a laudable focus—on the great eastern main line as the primary driver for delivering that. I thank my right hon. Friend the Minister for her support for all that we have been doing. I again commend my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal for securing the debate. I look forward to the Minister’s supportive comments when she responds to it.

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

I call Ben Gummer.