Agenda for Change: NHS Pay Restraint

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Monday 30th January 2017 Westminster Hall

[Andy Burnham]

That is how it begins to appear. The Government are pushing people beyond their limits. There was the attempt to introduce regional pay, and there was the attempt to cut what is called the unsocial hours payment—there has been a whole series of initiatives that try to strip away support for the profession. It begins to feel like an attack on the profession. That is certainly how junior doctors felt, and I think GPs feel the same. The nursing profession is making clear today that it feels the same too.

As I said, this is a false economy. As well as damaging the good will and the extra hours that people were willing to offer before, it has also, as my hon. Friend the Member for Foyle indicated, pushed people into the arms of private staffing agencies. That, in the end, is another false economy for the national health service. Over recent years, we have seen the bill for private staffing agencies in the NHS increase year on year, to the point where it is now in the region of several billion pounds every year. Many trusts are in the grip of the private staffing agencies. That, of course, is also a factor in the cuts to nurse training that we have seen in recent years.

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman is making some very fair points. I hope he recognises that one of the first things I did in ministerial office was to reverse what was happening on regional pay and stick to the national pay contracts. He makes an important point about temporary staffing. If we look at the approach with the junior doctors’ contract, many junior doctors will now see a huge reduction in in-house locum pay for the work they are doing; it is sometimes a reduction of £10 an hour. That will feed locum agencies and drive up the temporary staffing bill. We need to see nurses and other Agenda for Change staff paid properly, to stop them needing to do agency work. That is one of the main drivers of the agency business.

[Andy Burnham]

I am glad to hear the intervention of the former Minister, whom I worked well with in the previous Parliament. I want to take this opportunity to say that he did listen on regional pay. We made an argument about that issue, backed up by the RCN and others, and, to be fair, it did not go any further than the experiment in the south-west. I give credit to him for that. I also give credit to him for consistently showing a real regard for the pressures faced on the frontline.

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point that the Minister would do well to reflect on. There is a huge false economy here. It makes sense to have fairness in terms of headline pay for staff, to maintain good will, but on top of that, it makes sense to provide them with incentives to give any additional shifts or time to the in-house bank, rather than private staffing agencies. The Government have lost sight of that in recent times.

Social Care

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Wednesday 16th November 2016 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley)—my good friend—on an excellent speech. She has no equal in this House as a champion for older people and their carers. Her speech, unlike the speech by the Secretary of State, was firmly rooted in the real world.

This is the century of the ageing society. Caring for people as they live longer lives is the greatest public policy challenge of our times, but for years Parliament has shown itself to be unequal to that challenge. I want to speak today to tell the story of the efforts to reform social care over the last decade, because I want the facts to be on the record, so that people can understand what happened and vow to do better. The story explains the mess we are in today. To be honest, it is quite a shocking story of partisan point-scoring and, worse, political cowardice, which have seriously failed millions of older and disabled people.

The story started nine years ago at the spending review in 2007. I was Chief Secretary to the Treasury at the time, and at the insistence of the Treasury I gave the Department of Health the condition on its spending review settlement that it would conduct a root and branch review of the funding of social care. There was a recognition, even in the Treasury, that if we allowed the situation to continue, it could, in the end, damage the national health service. Quite clearly, the funding was not sustainable, and if social care was left to collapse, it would drag down the NHS with it.

The urgency of such action had been recognised almost a decade earlier, in 1999, when a report by a royal commission on the matter recommended free personal care, paid for by general taxation. It did so for the reason that if we pay for free preventive care in people’s homes, those people do not end up in hospital and costing us all more. Nothing was done, and by 2007 the need for reform was urgent. So between 2007 and 2009, a huge amount of detailed modelling work was done and options were looked at.

When I arrived in the post of Health Secretary in 2009, the work had come to a head. The analysis supported a clear conclusion that radical reform, rather than patching up, was needed. Department of Health officials supported the Treasury analysis that there would be risks to the NHS if social care was allowed to decline. A Green Paper was published in July 2009, and the idea of a national care service was first put forward. The thinking was that only by bringing the systems together, with a system of clear national entitlement, would we be able properly to move towards integration. The maintenance of two entirely differently funded systems—one free at the point of use and the other means-tested and charged for—would mean that they would never be able to speak the same language and there would always be barriers to integration.

I was ready to grasp the nettle, because it was clear to me that the NHS was facing a decade of lower funding from 2010 and 2020, and that one of the ways it could cope with that was with the efficiencies we could unlock through properly and fully integrating health and social care and by moving from a hospital-based medical model to a person-centred social model of care starting in the home.

This is where things went wrong. Picking up that I was ready to up the momentum for reform, the then shadow Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley, approached me in Portcullis House just before Christmas 2009 and asked me for cross-party talks. I thought about it, but I agreed. I thought, as my hon. Friend the Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) has suggested, that we should take the issue out of party politics, which would be better for everybody. We had a couple of meetings, in which we went round the issues. I favoured the more ambitious, comprehensive reform of paying for social care on the NHS principle—that everybody contributes, but everybody is covered for their care needs and has peace of mind in later life. Andrew Lansley wanted a more voluntary system, in which the insurance market would come up with solutions. That was where we left it.

Then a bombshell was dropped in February 2010: the poster saying, “Now Gordon wants £20,000 when you die.” I very vividly remember the day when it landed. I was told that Andy Coulson had put pressure on Andrew Lansley to do it, and that he did not really want to, but felt he could not say no. I do not know whether that is true, but I know that the Conservatives, who asked me for cross-party talks, betrayed the confidence that I gave, and they have never seen fit to apologise for that. The point is not about the personal political damage that that did, but about the chilling effect the poster had on the social care debate. It instantly killed any talk of radical reform, and it actually had a deadening effect for the rest of the following Parliament—the last Parliament—during which no real progress was made.

That brings me to what happened after the election, when, as shadow Health Secretary, I challenged the Government from the Opposition Front Bench about the poster that they had put out during the election saying that they would cut the deficit, not the NHS. I made the point that if they did so, they would in effect cut social care: if they prioritised NHS spending within the reduced envelope, that would have devastating consequences for social care and would in the end come back to affect the NHS.

From the Dispatch Box at every Prime Minister’s Question Time, the then Prime Minister used to quote me as claiming that it would be irresponsible to give the NHS real-terms increases, but he never commented on the second part of what I had said, which was that it was irresponsible to do so if we were cutting social care. I did say that, and it was irresponsible to social care in the way they did to pay for their commitment to the NHS. Social care was cut by 9% during the last Parliament, with 400,000 vulnerable people losing support in their homes. Those people ended up in A&E or trapped in hospital beds, piling pressure on the hospital system.

[Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

I pay tribute to the right hon. Gentleman—this may be my last chance to do so—for the work he has done as a Member and wish him well in his future career if he is successful in his election. Does he agree that the chilling effect of the outcome of those conversations before the election and perhaps the betrayal of his confidence, as he puts it, is that there could no longer be a rational conversation about properly funding the health and care system through any form of taxation? That is the problem that has emerged, and perhaps the best way to fix it is through general taxation.

[Andy Burnham]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention and the spirit in which he made it. He is absolutely right: that set everything back and meant that there was no possibility of a cross-party approach. There will have to be such an approach if we are to fix social care and, indeed, to give the NHS what it needs, because they will both need more funding during this Parliament. That is the real shame. I did not make my point about Andrew Lansley for political reasons; I just want people to understand what happened, so that the current generations of politicians might do something different.

The answers we have since had from the Government are wholly inadequate. We have heard today that the precept does not raise enough money, particularly for poorer councils. It is no answer; in fact, it just cynically devolves the responsibility for the whole issue to local government, even though councils did not create the problem. I still favour an all-in system. I will say it: I favour a system in which we ask older people to pay a set contribution, so that they have peace of mind in later life, with all their care costs covered.

NHS (Government Spending)

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Wednesday 28th January 2015 Commons Chamber

[Dr Poulter]

The point is that the figures for the expected trajectory of clinical negligence were the same under the previous Government as under this Government. We know that even though the NHS and its front-line staff deliver safe and effective care in the main, the costs of looking after people—who may not previously have survived into adulthood, but do so now because care has improved—are now much greater. As a result, the quantum of settlements is sometimes greater than it used to be because our NHS is doing better at helping people, who previously might have died in childhood, to live longer. That means a greater lifetime of care costs, which the previous Government would have been familiar with when they looked at future litigation spending. We are, rightly, asking where we can save money on NHS litigation and we will announce soon the results of work on reducing the adversarial nature of low quantum claims, which will also benefit NHS finances.

As senior figures in the Labour party made clear this week, if the previous Labour Government had delivered efficiencies on the scale that we have delivered in our NHS, £40 billion more would have been available for front-line patient care. Let us remember that it was under Labour that £10 billion was wasted on a failed NHS IT contract; that hospitals were crippled by eye-watering PFI repayments, which currently total £2 billion a year; and that the pay bill for NHS managers doubled. Indeed, in the last year under the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham), the number of managers in the NHS went up six times as fast as the number of nurses.

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

I am grateful to the Minister, because I was going to mention my last year in office. Would he care to inform the House what the bill for management consultancy in the NHS was in 2010 and what it is now?

[Dr Poulter]

I have just told the right hon. Gentleman very clearly that the cost of NHS managers doubled under the previous Labour Government, a profligate record of spending that has taken money away from front-line patient care.

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend makes a very important point. We could stand here all day talking about the inefficiencies and profligacy in running the NHS finances by the previous Labour Government. He is also right to highlight—

[Andy Burnham]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Poulter]

I am going to make some progress. I will give way to the right hon. Gentleman later. I have been very generous and I need to make some progress. I remind him that under the previous Labour Government, as my hon. Friend the Member for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) highlighted quite rightly, NHS providers were paid less than private sector providers. The right hon. Gentleman and the previous Labour Government paid the private sector 11% more than the NHS for performing the same NHS operations—something we have clearly outlawed under our legislation.

If we needed a further reminder of what Labour does when it runs the health service we need only look at Wales today, where almost every indicator of NHS performance shows that the Welsh NHS, run by Labour, is performing poorly when compared with the NHS in England. While we protected and increased our NHS budget in England, Labour in Wales has cut the NHS budget and patients are paying the price. Thanks to Labour in Wales, people have to wait about 100 days longer than patients in England for knee and hip operations. On finances and on care, Labour has let down our hard-working NHS staff and patients in Wales by its lack of investment in front-line services.

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The fact that the shadow Health Secretary’s colleague, the hon. Member for Nottingham East, opened the debate perhaps shows a lack of confidence. The shadow Health Secretary’s record is very difficult to defend.

[Andy Burnham]

Will the Minister give way?

[Dr Poulter]

If the right hon. Gentleman wanted to contribute to the debate in such a meaningful way, why did he not have the courage to stand here and speak in this debate? I have been very generous in giving way. I know he does not like to be reminded of his record in office. Frankly, on NHS finances his record is abysmal, just like the previous Labour Government’s record of running our economy. If he wants to contribute he should speak in the debate. I will give way generously again later, but I want to make some progress.

On the Government Benches, we know that we cannot have a strong NHS without a strong economy. In spite of the profoundly challenging financial position we inherited from Labour, I am proud that this Government have increased NHS funding in each year of this Parliament. As a result of the additional funding announced in the autumn statement for 2015-16, funding will be £16 billion higher in cash terms in 2015-16 than it was in 2010-11. That equates to an increase of £6.8 billion in real terms for our national health service under this Government.

Our NHS is also on track to deliver up to £20 billion of efficiency savings this Parliament, having reported about £15 billion of efficiencies in the first three years. All of that has, or will be, reinvested into front-line patient care. Our commitment to our NHS has meant that, since the last election in 2010, there are now more than 17,200 more professionally qualified clinical staff, including over 9,000 more doctors, enabling 850,000 more people to have operations than in 2010, and over 3,300 more nurses, midwives and health visitors. Fewer patients are waiting to start treatment, and hospital infections have virtually halved. Mixed-sex wards, a great scandal of the previous Government, have largely become a thing of the past. I could, and will, go on in a moment.

National Health Service (Amended Duties and Powers) Bill

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Friday 21st November 2014 Commons Chamber

[Dr Poulter]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think the tone of that point of order made my point for me better than I could have done.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Banbury said in what was one of the best speeches on the NHS I have heard in this Parliament, the Health and Social Care Act 2012 did not introduce competition into our NHS. To say that it did is factually incorrect, scaremongering and distracts the NHS from addressing the key issues it faces. It was the creation of a mixed health economy, implemented by the previous Labour Government, that exposed our NHS to competition law, not the introduction of the Health and Social Care Act.

[Andy Burnham]

That is a very important point that goes to the heart of this debate and that really needs to be cleared up for those listening and watching. The Minister said that the Act did not introduce competition. Will he confirm that it gave, for the first time, a role to the competition authorities under the Enterprise Act 2002 and that since then they have intervened, for the first time ever in the history of the NHS, in Bournemouth and Poole?

[Dr Poulter]

What I will confirm is that it is factually correct, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Banbury made clear, to say that it was the previous Labour Government—Tony Blair’s Government—who introduced competition into our NHS. At the end of Labour’s time in office, I believe that £6 billion a year was going to NHS providers. The right hon. Member for Leigh was quite happy to pay private sector providers 11% more than NHS providers for providing the same service. That was Labour’s commitment to the private sector, which we have cleared up and put right in the 2012 Act.

Let us remember what the Labour party said in its last general election manifesto. I am sure Labour Members will remember it well—the right hon. Gentleman may well have written it. It said:

“All hospitals will become Foundation Trusts…Foundation Trusts will be given the freedom to expand their provision…and community care, and to increase their private services”.

That is from the manifesto that every Labour Member stood on at the last election. The facts are clear: competition in our NHS was introduced well before this Parliament and well before this Government came into power. It was introduced by policies made by Members who now sit on the Opposition Benches—the policies of the previous Labour Government.

As my right hon. Friend the Member for Banbury reminded us, it was Labour that introduced the use of independent treatment centres in 2003, the “any willing provider” policy and the advent of patient choice in 2006, and it was Labour’s policies when in government that brought NHS commissioning under the scope of European competition law through the Public Contract Regulations 2006.

NHS Services (Access)

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Wednesday 15th October 2014 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

All the evidence from around the world tells us that more market-based health systems cost more than systems such as the NHS, and are more complex and fragmented. The clear conclusion I draw is that the market is not the answer to 21st-century health and care. The Government believe it is, which is why they must be defeated if we are to protect our national health service.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

I hear what the right hon. Gentleman is saying. If he is concerned about other providers in the health service, will he explain why the previous Labour Government were happy to pay private sector providers 11% more than NHS providers for providing NHS services?

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

We brought in other providers in a supporting role to add capacity to bring down NHS waiting lists to the lowest ever level. That is what the previous Government did. By contrast, this Government are doing something different. It is mandating tendering on GP commissioners, requiring people to compete, wasting money on running tenders and privatising the national health service, which is why they must be stopped.

Care Bill [Lords]

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Tuesday 11th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

I rise to speak to my amendment 30. When the coalition came to office, it made a series of grand promises about future changes to hospital services. The coalition agreement proclaimed:

“We will stop the centrally dictated closure of A&E and maternity wards, so that people have better access to local services.”

GPs were to be put in the driving seat and given the power to shape local services. That was then; now we have a Secretary of State who has not just failed to stop centrally dictated closures but wants to legislate to make them much easier. What a difference four years make.

Clause 119 allows a hospital to be closed or downgraded simply because it happens to be near a failing one. It denies local people a meaningful say in those life and death decisions. It creates an entirely new route for hospital reconfiguration—top-down and finance-led. It subverts the established process in the NHS, which requires that any changes to hospitals should first and foremost be about saving lives, rather than saving money. It puts management consultants, not medical consultants or GPs, in the driving seat. By any reckoning, it represents a major change of policy from the one originally set out by the coalition.

[Dr Poulter]

If the right hon. Gentleman is so concerned about issues of financial failure, why did the Health Act 2009, through which the previous Labour Government introduced the regime, allow trust special administrators to consider only financial failure, not care failure, a fact which we are changing in the Bill?

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister anticipates me—he has hit the nail on the head. It was a different vehicle. It was a vehicle for financial and administrative reconfiguration, not service reconfiguration. In our view, those important decisions cannot be imposed on people, but should follow an established process. It should begin with local consultation, with local elected members involved in overview and scrutiny having the chance to make challenges, and then it should be referred for independent reconfiguration. That was the previous Government’s established policy, and in my view it is the right way to make changes in the NHS. As I shall explain, that is why I believe that he and his colleagues are spectacularly wrong.

[Dr Poulter]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Burnham]

I agree with my hon. Friend. That is the point that the Minister revealed in his intervention. The original power was designed for something entirely different. It was designed to deal with financial failure in a trust. It put in place measures to dissolve and rescue that trust through administrative reconfiguration. It was never intended as a vehicle for back-door reconfiguration across a whole health economy. That is where the Government got themselves into trouble. The fact that they cannot see that now, after the court has told them that they went way beyond Parliament’s original intention, reflects badly on their ability to listen.

[Dr Poulter]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Burnham]

This is where the right hon. Gentleman and I differ. I believe that we need to begin by asking whether there is a clinical case for change and build from there. Clause 119 seeks to turn things around. It starts with the financial case for change and the clinical issues come second. The previous Government established a very clear policy, advised by Sir Ian Carruthers, that the clinical case must be front and centre, and that we must build from there. Clause 119 completely subverts that.

[Dr Poulter]

The shadow Secretary of State is rewriting history. Under the TSA clause written by the Labour Government, only financial failure could be considered as part of a trust special administrator regime. That is not the case under the changes in the Bill, in which it is about patient care. The Care Quality Commission has a clear role in assuring that patient care. Will he now accept that?

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister makes my point again. The powers dealt only with financial failure. That is the point. The Government tried to misappropriate those powers and use them as a back-door route to impose reconfiguration on local communities. That is where they got into trouble. That is why the High Court said that they were acting beyond their powers and breaking Parliament’s original intention in the legislation. In his two interventions, he has made my fundamental case, which is that this is the wrong vehicle for making major changes to hospital services.

[Dr Poulter]

rose—

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Burnham]

I will make some progress but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman before the end of my speech.

Let me set out more of the background, because the Minister raised it a moment ago. In 2009 I took proposals through the House to create a process that could be used in extremis to deal with a trust that had got into serious financial problems. That was a financial and administrative vehicle, not a vehicle for widespread service change across the health economy. That is why the High Court was quite correct in upholding Parliament’s original intention when it accepted the case of the people of Lewisham against the Secretary of State, and threw out his plan to downgrade a much-loved and successful hospital. At that point, common decency would have suggested that the right response to the reverse in court would have been to listen to the court and bow down gracefully. Instead, it appears for all the world as if in a fit of pique, the Secretary of State is changing the law to get his way because he can. Imagine the outcry if someone caught breaking the law could simply come along and change it to their satisfaction. We would not accept that for burglars, and we should not accept it for politicians.

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving way. He makes the point that, during his time in office, the regime was very limited. In the interests of consistency, I point out that page 6 of his own impact assessment for the TSA regime in May 2009 states:

“NHS Trusts…are not free-floating, commercial organisations …State-owned providers are part of a wider NHS system.”

That directly contradicts what the right hon. Gentleman has just been saying.

[Andy Burnham]

Is the Minister listening to the debate and to what I am saying? I have explained to him carefully that that was a vehicle for financial and administrative reconfiguration. Yes, a neighbouring trust might have had to come and help with a solution to carry on with the administration and the running of that trust. That is the point, and that is what he has just read out. It was never a vehicle for service change—I do not know how many times I can make that point to the Minister before he actually listens.

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[Dr Poulter]

That is absolutely the case. It is absolutely wrong to conflate the fact—as Opposition Members are trying to do—that from time to time even good hospitals occasionally run deficits with the TSA regime. This is a power of last resort; it is not a power that is routinely used. Local measures are in place to support hospitals to get their finances in order and to ensure that where there are care quality problems, they are addressed promptly to the benefit of patients.

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister was saying that all other measures should be explored first, in particular co-operation—buddying, he said—between hospitals. If that is the case, why did the Competition Commission step in to prevent sensible collaboration between two hospitals on the south coast, Bournemouth and Poole? How is what he has just said consistent with the Health and Social Care Act 2012, which requires hospitals to compete, not to collaborate?

[Dr Poulter]

As part of our changes in the wake of the Mid Staffordshire inquiry—changes the right hon. Gentleman would be wise to heed and learn lessons from, if he should be lucky enough ever to be on the Government Benches again—we have made it clear that we need to ensure that where there are care quality failures, hospitals learn to put such problems right much more promptly than they have done in the past. That is why we put in place buddying mechanisms and why we put trusts in special measures, to deal with issues quickly and effectively to ensure that hospital services are put back on track and patients can be properly protected.

--- Later in debate ---

[Jim Dowd]

rose—

[Andy Burnham]

rose—

[Dr Poulter]

I may give way in a few moments, but I need to make a bit of progress. The clause would extend the remit of a TSA to make recommendations that may apply to services beyond the confines of the trust in administration. The Secretary of State or, in the case of foundation trusts, Monitor, will be able to make decisions based on those wider powers. Where severe and prolonged problems exist, an administrator must be able to recommend a solution in the best interests of local patients. Only then can we resolve the situation in a sensible, holistic way and ensure safe and sustainable patient care. That is what the impact assessment said of the 2009 TSA regime, and something the Government are ensuring that we deliver, even though the previous Government failed to deliver it.

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[Andy Burnham]

The Minister is being generous. He has made the argument all afternoon that he is doing what I was doing; he is just using the powers that I created. That is the crux of his argument. If that is the case, why did three judges rule that this Government had broken Parliament’s original intention when they passed those powers?

[Dr Poulter]

Quite frankly, it was because the right hon. Gentleman’s legislation was not worded effectively enough—[Interruption.]

Care Bill [Lords]

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Monday 10th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

Where in the new clause does it say that? Nowhere does it say that the data cannot be passed to private health insurance companies. Proposed new subsection 1A states that such information could be passed on

“for the purposes of…the provision of health care or adult social care”.

This is a very wide provision, and I see no clarity in it that delivers on the commitment that the Minister is giving to the House.

[Dr Poulter]

Hopefully, if I am allowed to make some progress and address the points that have been raised, I will give further reassurances a little later. It would be useful—[Interruption.] I will answer the question a little later, so there is no point in heckling or being abusive. If the right hon. Gentleman will wait, I will talk him through the Government’s amendments so that he can gain a better understanding —

--- Later in debate ---

[Dr Poulter]

No, I am not afraid to give way. The hon. Gentleman should sit down, because he often has quite enough to say, and it is not always a very valuable contribution. In this context, he may do well to listen to some of the purposes of the amendments. As I have already outlined, there are strong safeguards set out in the 2012 Act on how data can be used. Data can be used only for the benefit of the health and care system. In order to reassure the public, we have tabled amendments to clarify further how data may be used.

Speaking to a great many people in recent days, as well as considering amendments tabled by other Members, has prompted the Government to re-table the new clause in order to clarify that these kinds of data may also be disseminated for other wider public health purposes, such as research into environmental factors associated with asthma, or for healthy eating. We have ensured that those other kinds of research can benefit from the data by changing the wording in the new clause to make it clear that information may be disseminated for the purposes of

“the provision of health care or adult social care”

or “the promotion of health”. I am sure that the House will agree that it is essential that that valuable data resource is available to support a broad range of health research.

New clause 34 clarifies that in disseminating information, and indeed in carrying out any of its functions, the Health and Social Care Information Centre must have regard to the need to promote and respect the privacy of those receiving health services and adult social care in England. It also requires the HSCIC to take into account advice from the advisory committee that the Health Research Authority is required to appoint under paragraph 8 of schedule 7 to the Bill. The advice from that committee, known as the confidentiality advisory group, will provide a new level of independent scrutiny of the HSCIC’s decisions to publish or disseminate information.

Amendment 17 would also enable the confidentiality advisory group to advise the HSCIC on the exercise of functions conferred in regulations under section 251 of the National Health Service Act 2006, or more generally on decisions to disseminate information that could be used to identify individual patients. For example, when new regulations are made under section 251 of the 2006 Act that confer functions on the HSCIC, the confidentiality advisory group could advise the HSCIC on proposals to release data. New clause 34 requires the HSCIC to have regard to that external advice on its exercise of any function under the 2012 Act of publishing or otherwise disseminating information.

Amendment 18 gives the Secretary of State regulation-making powers to set out the specific criteria that the confidentiality advisory group will be required to take into account in giving advice to the Secretary of State, the Health Research Authority or the HSCIC in carrying out their duties. That provision is intended to enable regulations which would require that the confidentiality advisory group considers: that the purpose for which the data will be used should be in the public interest and for the provision of health and care services; that any approved processing must respect and promote the privacy of patients and care service users; that the purpose cannot be achieved using suitably anonymised data, rather than identifiable data; that it is not reasonably possible to gain explicit patient consent to achieve that purpose; and that the applicant requesting the data has not misused those kinds of data in the past.

That last criterion would effectively introduce a new “one strike and you’re out” deterrent. Potentially, for some organisations, the risk of no longer being able to access those kinds of data may prove a more effective sanction than the current maximum monetary penalty of £500,000 that can be imposed under the Data Protection Act 1998. Taken together, those measures provide an additional level of scrutiny and assurance to the processes of the HSCIC in publishing or disseminating information. The Government’s amendments—new clause 34 and amendments 17 and 18—provide robust assurance that those kinds of data cannot be disseminated for purposes such as commercial insurance or for assessing an individual’s mortgage application.

[Andy Burnham]

Before the Minister sits down, I would be very appreciative if he could direct me to the precise part of new clause 34 that prevents a private health insurance company accessing data.

Francis Report

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Wednesday 5th March 2014 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

I thoroughly agree with the Minister about collecting data on mental health so that we can make proper judgments about the quality of services, but why has the Department of Health scrapped the annual survey of expenditure on adult mental health services?

[Dr Poulter]

It is very difficult for me to stand at the Dispatch Box and take any lessons from the right hon. Gentleman and the previous Government on mental health issues. Only this Government have taken serious steps to improve parity of esteem and enshrine it in law, and only this Government are investing in mental health on the ground, with £450 million that is particularly focused on talking therapies. If the previous Government had any interest in mental health, they had 13 years to make investments and to improve data collection to drive better commissioning, but they took no steps towards doing that, and I am afraid that their record on mental health was abysmal and very poor. Unfortunately, patients paid the price for that.

We are very proud of our record on mental health, but it will take several years to turn around the fact that there was no parity of esteem in the past. Investment is now going in on the ground and things are being put in better order. My right hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam played his part in that, and the 2012 Act was a huge step forward in delivering those improvements.

I will try not to get drawn away from the topic of the Francis inquiry, Mr Deputy Speaker—we are talking about the broader health and care service—but I mentioned mental health, which we can be proud of, because it was mentioned by Francis in his report.

It is also important to talk about some of the wider lessons that can be drawn from the Francis inquiry. The right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) and my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) spoke particularly about the need, apolitically, to make sure that the whole of the United Kingdom draws such lessons. I have had very productive meetings with counterparts in Scotland, and Wales can also learn lessons about the importance of transparency and openness, and about recognising potential areas of poor care.

I hope that shadow Ministers will take up those matters with their counterparts in Wales, because such a situation can only be to the detriment of patients there. That is not a political point, but one about good care. It is important for us to deliver that in the system at the moment. It is also important because English patients are treated in Welsh hospitals. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State is very excited about that point, which is why he is a very strong advocate of the needs of English patients and why he takes a particular and important interest in what happens in Wales, quite rightly drawing comparisons between the two systems.

Robert Francis found, as we have discussed, that individuals and organisations at every level of our health service let down the patients and families whom they were there to care for and protect. That was a systemic failure on the part of everyone concerned and cultural change was needed throughout the system. To prevent the same thing from ever happening again, the Government are changing the culture by requiring transparency and openness, by empowering staff and supporting strong leadership, and by embedding the patient voice and listening when something goes wrong.

NHS

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

We are seeing this across the NHS. We have also seen contracts going to companies whose shareholders are Tory party donors. The closeness of the links between the Tory party and private health care is worrying.

Since April, when their Act came in, seven out of the 10 contracts let have gone outside the NHS. That is the clearest of all wake-up calls about what is happening to the NHS under this Government: it is being broken up and sold off. Under section 75 of the Act, clinicians have to put services out to tender, regardless of whether they are performing well, and that is the big difference between this Government and the last one. They are enforcing competition and marketisation in the NHS, but nobody voted for it.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

Why, when the right hon. Gentleman was Secretary of State, were the previous Government prepared to pay private sector providers 11% more than NHS providers?

[Andy Burnham]

Let me explain the difference to the Minister. When we were in government we used the private sector in a supporting role to help bring down NHS waiting times; he is using the private sector to replace the public NHS. There is a very big difference. He might remember that as Secretary of State I introduced the NHS preferred provider policy. At the time, his party complained—it said it was wrong—but I did it because I believed in the public NHS. I believe in what it stands for, unlike him and his party.

[Dr Poulter]

I remind the right hon. Gentleman that, unlike him, I have worked for the NHS and understand what it is like to work on its front line. Will he confirm that the previous Government introduced private sector provision into the NHS and paid 11% more to private sector providers than to NHS providers? This Government will not allow that.

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister looks pleased with himself, but I am afraid he has got his facts wrong. We did not introduce the private sector into the NHS; it has always worked with the private sector to relieve pressure on waiting lists. As a doctor, he should know that. He might also know that waiting lists and times came right down under the last Government, because the private sector supported the NHS, and I am proud of how we brought waiting lists down, but he is using the private sector to replace the public NHS. He is saying that any qualified provider can provide NHS contracts. I had a policy of designating the NHS as the preferred provider. So let us get the facts straight. There is a major difference between the two positions.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Tuesday 14th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Dr Poulter]

I will certainly do that and write to my hon. Friend to reassure her, although members of staff who work part time often put tremendous effort into their work, and we often get well rewarded by the broader experience they bring as a result of being part time, so there are benefits to having part-time staff in the NHS.

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

Figures out today show a staggering 60% rise in spending on locum A and E doctors under this Government—in some trusts, 20 times more—because they cannot recruit staff. It has now come to light that Ministers were warned about this problem three years ago. Dr Clifford Mann, president of the College of Emergency Medicine, said that when he tried to raise this issue, he was left feeling like

“John the Baptist crying in the wilderness”.

Why did Ministers ignore an explicit warning in 2011 from the top A and E doctor in the country?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Tuesday 11th June 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr Poulter]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that local authorities have a key role to play in integrated care. That is why in April this year the Government set up local health and wellbeing boards, which will bring about greater integration of care between the NHS, housing providers and social care locally. That will hopefully ensure that across the country we have a much greater focus on local health care needs and, in particular, on better supporting older people and people with long-term disabilities at home and keeping them out of hospital.

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

A moment ago the Minister mentioned more elderly people coming in through A and E, and I want to present the House with new, deeply troubling evidence of that. Nobody wants to think of a very frail elderly person with no other support at home having to come to A and E by ambulance, but that is what increasing numbers of elderly people are having to do. Buried in the general A and E figures is an appalling increase in people aged over 90 coming to A and E by blue-light ambulance, which is up by 66%, equivalent to more than 100,000 of the most vulnerable people in our society. That is an appalling failure and a sign of something seriously wrong in the way we care for older people, and it is set to get worse as home care is cut further this year. Will he investigate that increase urgently and act now to prevent the collapse of social care?

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right—there is almost an outbreak of consensus across the Dispatch Boxes on this issue. We both recognise, rightly, that there is a long-term challenge in providing more integrated, joined-up care to better look after older people. However, it is ironic that he should raise that concern, because a previous Minister in the other place, the noble Lord Warner, has made the case very clearly that the previous Government failed to invest adequately in elderly care throughout their time in office. That is why this Government—I hope that we can count on the right hon. Gentleman’s support for this—are investing in health and social care, more integrated services at a local level through health and wellbeing boards and—

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Tuesday 15th January 2013 Commons Chamber

[Dr Poulter]

I am happy to inform the hon. Lady that we are meeting the 95% target nationally for the A and E wait. On the most recent figures available, 96% of patients were seen within that period—96 out of every 100 patients are seen within four hours in A and E. The key difference between this Government and the last Labour Government is that we trust clinicians to ensure that they prioritise those patients in greatest need ahead of purely meeting targets and ticking boxes.

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

As winter bites, the NHS faces its toughest time of year, but there is mounting evidence that the Secretary of State has left it unprepared. For 105 of his 133 days in office, the Government have missed their own A and E target for major A and Es. Last week, for the first time, the figure fell below 90%. Right now in A and Es up and down England, ambulances are stuck in queues outside, patients are on trolleys in corridors, and people are waiting to be seen for hours on end. Does the Minister accept that there is a growing crisis in our A and Es, and if he does, what is he doing about it?

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman is good at putting across figures based on brief snapshots in the year. We know that on an annual basis we are meeting the target, and that 96% of patients are being seen on time in A and Es. We have made allowances for winter pressures, which we know are always difficult during the flu season every year, and we have put aside £330 million to ensure that we support the NHS during those winter pressures. Let me make it clear to the right hon. Gentleman that it is wrong to try and distort figures based on outcomes from a snapshot of just a few days or a week. It is important to put across the clear picture, which is that the Government are meeting targets in the NHS and patients are being treated in a much more timely manner than under the previous Government.

[Andy Burnham]

I suggest to the Minister that he needs to get out on the ground in the NHS a bit more. The figures I gave him were for major A and Es. If he got out more, he would realise that his complacency, which we have just seen at the Dispatch Box, is not justified. Let us look at Milton Keynes, which was identified by the Care Quality Commission as one of the 17 understaffed hospitals, and where last week just 72% of patients were seen within four hours. Milton Keynes is one of 15 trusts in England where A and E performance plummeted below 80%. These are the kind of figures that we have not seen in the NHS since the bad old days of the mid-1990s. Ministers like to blame nurses, but it is time they started accepting some responsibility. Will the Minister today ensure that all A and Es in England have enough staff to get safely through the winter?

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Tuesday 27th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[Dr Poulter]

I thank my hon. Friend for his question. He is right to raise this, because it has been a very long-standing problem. I am sure that he would welcome, with me, the fact that under the current Government over 1.1 million more people are receiving access to NHS dentistry. However, this is a difficult case, and I am happy to meet him to discuss it further and see what I can do to help to unblock the problem.

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

Ministers have repeatedly promised to ban rationing of treatment by cost in the NHS. If the Minister is presented with evidence that this is still continuing, will he today give the House a categorical assurance that he will act immediately to stop it?

[Dr Poulter]

It has been very clear in all the criteria for NHS commissioners set by the previous Government and by this Government that decisions about local health care treatment have to be based on clinical need, and that those decisions are for local commissioners. The difference is that this Government will make sure that doctors, nurses and health care professionals are in charge of budgets and setting health care priorities rather than the managers the previous Government chose to favour, who did not always have experience of front-line care and did not always understand some of the challenges that patients were facing.

[Andy Burnham]

I will take that as a yes. The Minister is going to have a busy day, because this afternoon he will have on his desk new evidence that I will send him showing that an estimated 52,000 patients in England are being denied treatment and kept off NHS waiting lists because of new restrictions imposed under his Government on cataracts, varicose veins, carpal tunnel syndrome, and other serious treatments. Ministers boast of lower waiting lists, but that is because they have stopped people getting on to the waiting lists in the first place. Patients in pain and discomfort, unable to work, are being forced to pay for treatment. How many more people will have to suffer before he finally acts?

Regional Pay (NHS)

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Wednesday 7th November 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Dr Daniel Poulter)]

It is a great pleasure to respond to today’s debate. I am pleased to start on a consensual note, in that we have heard some genuine concerns expressed by Members on both sides of the House on behalf of our NHS staff. All hon. Members very much value the dedication and hard work of all staff who work in the NHS on a daily basis. They often go above and beyond the call of duty to look after patients, and I would like to echo the comments made in that regard.

We have heard good contributions from the hon. Members for Blaydon (Mr Anderson), for South Down (Ms Ritchie), for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), for Hartlepool (Mr Wright), for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck), for York Central (Hugh Bayley), for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) and for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham); my hon. Friends the Members for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore), for Southport (John Pugh), for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) and for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson); my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox); and my hon. Friends the Members for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey) and for St Ives (Andrew George). The contributions from the hon. Member for York Central and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Torridge and West Devon were particularly thoughtful, putting on the record their genuine concerns for the NHS staff who work in their constituencies. Those contributions encapsulated the support that all Members of this House wish to show for the hard work that NHS staff do every day.

However, I was disappointed by the intervention from the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw). I have looked at the Hansard record, and it is worth picking up on this. I have here the details of the exchange involving the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), and I want to set the record straight for the House now. She asked:

“When did the Department of Health first find out about the formation of the consortium?”

The Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), replied that she was not aware—the Department was not aware—but that she would

“make further inquiries of …officials…and write to the hon. Lady”

to clarify that. It is clear that my hon. Friend has been misrepresented in this debate. That is in Hansard, it is on the record clearly, and I hope that hon. Members will accept the correction and withdraw their remarks. I wish to make it very clear, for the record, that we were made aware of the south-west consortium’s plans when its project document was leaked. That is when the Department became aware of the plans. We did not encourage the consortium in any way and it has the freedoms in respect of its own employment conditions that were given to it by the previous Government under their legislation.

It is worth stressing that Opposition Members, particularly those on the Front Bench, have made many attempts to rewrite history. The speech made by the hon. Member for Copeland (Mr Reed) bore little resemblance to reality when he talked about the involvement of the private sector. The right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) said that breaking national pay frameworks is the first step towards the marketisation of the NHS. Yet, as one of his colleagues said later, it was the previous Labour Government who introduced the private sector into the NHS in the first place, who paid the private sector more than NHS providers for providing the same services, and who allowed those private sector providers to cherry-pick the best services from the NHS, to the detriment of NHS patients. Through the Health and Social Care Act 2012, this Government will be stopping that by having more of an emphasis on joined-up and integrated care for all health care providers.

It was the Labour Government who introduced the pay structure about which Opposition Members are so concerned into the NHS. It was the Labour Government who introduced regional pay into the NHS through incentives and London weighting. It was the previous Labour Government who endorsed the flexibility of local employers to set their own terms and conditions. It was the Labour Government—the Government of the right hon. Member for Leigh—who gave greater freedoms to employers to set their own terms and conditions when they created foundation trusts.

Let me set the record straight and make things perfectly clear. We cannot rewrite history. The right hon. Member for Leigh wants a change of direction, but does he mean a change of direction from the pay flexibility that he and his Government gave to the NHS when they were in power? The Government recognise that in some parts of the country it is important to have pay flexibility in the NHS. We believe that it is right to reward London workers with a £6,000 London weighting because the cost of living is much higher. Does he want to withdraw that flexibility?

[Andy Burnham]

On our watch, no trust opted out of the national pay agreement in the NHS, but on the Government’s watch, 32 trusts are trying to undercut it. The hon. Gentleman is in the Government—what is he going to do about it?

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman cannot rewrite history. He cannot stand at the Dispatch Box and say that he no longer agrees with the pay flexibilities he gave local NHS employers or with the “Agenda for Change” document that his Government put in place. That document recognises that in parts of this country premiums of up to 30% need to be paid to employees. It also recognises that the cost of living in London is much higher and gives a £6,000 premium to NHS workers who work in the centre of London.

In our amendment, the Government are pleased to support the comments made to the GMB by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. That highlights the Government’s support for NHS and public sector staff and recognises implicitly that in some parts of the country—as the previous Government’s “Agenda for Change” makes clear—we need pay flexibility to recognise when the cost of living is greater.

Importantly, the Government have also made clear our intention to retain national pay frameworks and national collective bargaining while they remain fit for purpose. That is why we are encouraging NHS employers and the trade unions to come together at the NHS Staff Council to negotiate a settlement that remains fit for purpose so that we can continue to endorse national pay frameworks. That is the stated position of the Government and it is a shame that the Opposition are attempting to politicise an issue of their own making.

It is worth putting it on record that despite the financial challenge faced by the whole public sector, we have put an extra £12.5 billion into the NHS during the life of this Parliament. That is not to say, however, that there is no financial pressure, and the Opposition were right to highlight the Nicholson challenge and the need to cut away bureaucracy and waste in the NHS in order to put more money into the front line. We endorse that. The Government are meeting the Nicholson challenge, and the NHS reforms we have put in place will put the NHS in a much better place to do that in the future.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Tuesday 20th March 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

I have answered the right hon. Gentleman’s question. It was an entirely different situation altogether.

On the suggestion that we are setting our face against reform, we have not said that, and I as Secretary of State initiated a review of the private patient cap, because the issue came up before the election. I was prepared to allow a modest relaxation of the cap if it could be demonstrated to benefit private patients, but I was talking about single percentage points: 1% or 2% becoming 2% or 3%. I was not in any way conceiving the possibility that 49% of a trust’s income might be made from the treatment of private patients—that half their theatre time, beds and car parking spaces could be turned over to the treatment of private patients.

[Dr Poulter]

I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will concede that those hospital trusts with a private patient cap that is set at perhaps 35%, such as the Royal Marsden hospital, do not necessarily do that much private work. The decision is at the hospital’s discretion, so the idea that raising the cap to 49% will mean that hospital trusts will per se undertake 49% private activity has been proven to be incorrect, on the facts as they stand at the moment in hospital trusts, because those trusts, the doctors and boards work for the benefit of their patients.

[Andy Burnham]

That is the ideological difference between us. The hon. Gentleman says that the decision should be at the hospital’s discretion, but the Bill essentially sets everybody on their own. Hospitals are being told, “You’re on your own. There’s none of the support from the centre any more, no bail-outs, as the White Paper said. That’s it, you’re out there, you’re competing in a market, and you’ve got to stand on your own two feet.” I differ from that opinion because I want systems regulation and a role for the centre in deciding whether a hospital should greatly increase its treatment of private patients.

This is not just a question of each individual hospital thinking about what it is going to do, because hospitals will have pressure on their bottom lines, as a colleague said earlier. They will be operating in a difficult financial context, and it might have a different effect on their individual interests. It might make sense for hospitals, individually, to increase the number of private patients, but it might not make sense for the NHS patients who live in that area, and that is the entire point: the Government are trading systems regulation for the individual decisions of local organisations, because that fits when we move to a competitive market in which every individual organisation is a competing business.

[Dr Poulter]

I am struggling to follow the coherence of the right hon. Gentleman’s argument. On the one hand he says that it was all right for non-foundation trusts, under the previous Government, to increase massively the amount of private work that they did, as long as the Department agreed with it; on the other hand he argues that it is very important to control the amount by which foundation trusts raise the private patient cap. He cannot have it both ways, and his argument is not intellectually coherent. Is this not about doing things for the benefit of patients and leaving it up to local hospitals to decide?

[Andy Burnham]

The hon. Gentleman should make a speech if he wants to make interventions of that length. We had a cap to protect the interests of private patients; he is getting rid of the cap, and he is going to have to explain to patients in his constituency, if waiting lists start getting longer, why that is happening. It is as simple as that. We had systems regulation, he is removing that with the Bill and we are moving to a more unregulated market, which is not what we want to see.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Burnham]

I am afraid that I am not at all reassured by that, or in fact by anything the Minister says. The letter that we have from the Deputy Prime Minister spoke of insulating the NHS from European competition law, but I am still waiting to see the amendment that delivers that. As I understand it, one of the Minister’s noble Friends tabled an amendment and then withdrew it, because they did not have the courage to press it to a vote, and accepted a statement on the record instead. This is different from what the Minister keeps saying that we did in government, because he is envisaging a huge expansion of the role of any qualified provider and the putting out to tender of commissioning support units. He has overseen a situation in which three community services have been compulsorily tendered.

The truth is that the Clegg-Williams letter, with the amendments that followed, does not only fail to deliver but sells out the national health service, as does so much of what the Liberal Democrats have agreed to. Our amendments, particularly amendment (b), would provide a measure of systems regulation in the best interests of the NHS, and that is why we will seek to press amendment (b) to a vote.

[Dr Poulter]

I rise to speak in support of the Government, and of what the previous Government did for the NHS. When the shadow Secretary of State was Secretary of State for Health—the same was the case with many of his predecessors—there was a consistent policy whereby the private sector should be used where it could add value to patient care in the NHS. That was done very effectively by the previous Government to bring down waiting times for operations, but it was not effective when it was not done in an integrated way. Very often, it was done without regard to post-discharge planning for patients but, as we heard earlier, the renewed focus on integration should help to deal with those problems.

We have some of the very best hospitals not only in this country but in the world, including the Royal Marsden and Moorfields eye hospital, where a relatively high proportion of activity is carried out by the private sector. No one doubts those hospitals’ commitment to their NHS patients or that they still provide those patients with the very high standards of care of which health care systems in other countries are very envious. We are very proud of what those hospitals do, and the Government would like to give other hospitals the same opportunity and freedom to follow their example. The Government believe that it is absolutely appropriate that we should use the private sector where it can enhance value to NHS patients. That is absolutely consistent with the previous Government’s policies, for which many Labour Members campaigned at the last general election. This Government are also committed to those policies.

NHS (Private Sector)

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Monday 16th January 2012 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

The Minister of State says that is right, and he is free at any point to get up and challenge what I say or to prove how he can make that statement. I will give him the opportunity to do so soon.

The Prime Minister could not have been clearer—“no privatisation”. Similar statements were made during the pause by the Deputy Prime Minister. On the Marr programme on 8 May, he promised that safeguards would be brought forward in the health Bill. He said:

“What you will see in this legislation are clear guarantees that you are not going to have back-door privatisation of the NHS.”

He followed that up on 14 June with this promise:

“Patients, doctors and nurses have spoken. We have listened. Now we are improving our plans for the NHS. Yes to patient choice. No to privatisation. Yes to giving nurses, hospital doctors and family doctors more say in your care. No to the free market dogma that can fragment the NHS.”

Those statements from the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister were significant for two reasons. First, they revealed an understanding at the top of Government about how, more than anything else, fears about privatisation and the market in the NHS were driving professional disquiet about the Health and Social Care Bill—a Bill that was sold as putting doctors in charge but that had a hidden agenda of breaking up the structures of the national planned health system to allow a free market in health. Secondly, they implied that major changes to address those concerns would be made to the Bill and that there would be a return to the existing policy of the managed use of the private sector within a planned and publicly accountable health system.

Let me be clear. As our motion states, we believe that there is a role for the private sector in helping the NHS to deliver the best possible services to NHS patients, and that was the policy we pursued in government. Without the contribution of private providers, we would never have delivered NHS waiting lists and times at historically low levels, but let us put this in its proper context. Our policy was to use the private sector at the margins to support the public NHS. So, in 2009-10, 2.14% of all operations carried out in the NHS were carried out in the independent sector and spend in the private sector accounted for 7.4% of the total NHS budget. I would defend those figures, because that helped us to deliver the best health care to the people of this country.

Furthermore, we supported a system allowing foundation trusts to generate income at the margins of their activity from treating private patients but with a clearly defined cap to protect the interests of NHS patients at all times.

[Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the cap was not clearly defined but was very variable according to the hospital, and will he now say that it was wrong for the previous Government to set the cap at over 30% for the Royal Marsden hospital, which is a centre of excellence?

[Andy Burnham]

I agree that the cap varied according to historical levels of private sector activity within the different trusts. The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right about that, but he must agree that it was clearly defined in respect of every individual NHS hospital. They had a clear number and local people were able to hold them to account for that number. Where hospitals had large numbers, the cap froze their level of activity at the level when the cap was introduced.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Burnham]

There are a lot of questions there. The Secretary of State discusses the safeguards, but he has introduced them precisely because he has made a major break with 63 years of NHS history. He needs them because he wants a different health care system in this country, in which much more work is done by private providers and in which the commissioning of services is largely handed over to the private sector. That is why he has had to introduce those safeguards. We had a health service that was planned, managed and publicly accountable, but he is throwing all of that away.

[Dr Poulter]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way; he is very generous. Does he not agree that the two hospitals with the highest patient cap—the Royal Marsden and the Royal Brompton—use the money that they make through private income very effectively, and put it back in to make them centres of excellence for all patients, particularly their NHS patients?

[Andy Burnham]

That was the policy of the previous Government, but the cap was clearly defined. It was a tight cap, and it reflected historical levels of work. What we are talking about is a liberalising measure to enable the private sector to double if not quadruple the amount of work that it is doing, which is why we are debating the motion.

I shall pose a question for the Health Secretary, who mentioned safeguards. If it is all fine to create a different NHS in which we have many more private contracts, might not the NHS risk register have something to say about the risks of creating such an NHS and the additional challenges of delivering health care through a system based on commercial contracts? Might it not lead to a diversion of spending on lawyers and consultants, away from patient care? Is there not a great irony, as we have heard the Health Secretary bemoan a lack of ability to intervene in the recent situation while, at the same time, here he is promoting a Bill that removes his ability to do so on a much wider basis? He wants to hand over his ability to intervene to the independent NHS Commissioning Board. The irony of his position will not be lost on many people listening to the debate.

National Health Service

Debate between Dan Poulter and Andy Burnham

Wednesday 26th October 2011 Commons Chamber

[Andy Burnham]

I am not sure whether I should thank the hon. Lady for reminding me that I am now a shadow of my former self, but I thank her for her words. I will come to the precise question that she asks. I did indeed say those words, and I will explain why in a moment.

I was talking about the three headline promises that the Prime Minister made on the wards. They were part of a calculated and self-serving political strategy to detoxify the Tory brand, not a genuine concern for the NHS. It was cynical because, as we will show today, those were cheques for the NHS that the Tories knew they could not cash, and promises that they had no real intention of keeping. Let us take the Prime Minister’s three personal promises in turn, starting with the one on NHS funding. It will be good to get to the bottom of that once and for all.

At the last election, Labour promised to guarantee to maintain NHS front-line funding in real terms. The now Prime Minister, by contrast, offered real-terms increases. How big those increases would be was undefined, but that did not matter. The important thing was that, according to the requirements of the detoxification strategy, it sounded as though the Tories were planning to spend more.

I remember well our resulting exchanges with the then shadow Health Secretary, now the Heath Secretary, on the hustings. Indeed, the Prime Minister has in recent weeks been quoting what I said then, as the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) did a moment ago. I did indeed say that it was cynical and irresponsible to make those promises, and I repeat that today.

[Dr Daniel Poulter (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman consider “protecting the front line” to be the closure of many hospitals throughout the UK, mergers and the loss of vital cardiac services in such places as Ipswich? That was exactly what happened when he was Secretary of State.

[Andy Burnham]

The hon. Gentleman goes right to the heart of my speech today. We made those difficult decisions to get the NHS ready for the future. We grasped the nettle and took services out of hospitals and moved them into the community, because that is what has to happen if we are to have an NHS that is sustainable for the future. He stood on an election manifesto that promised the opposite. It was a dishonest pledge, and I will come to it in a moment.

I said a moment ago that it was irresponsible to promise real-terms increases. I say that because I completed a spending review of the NHS in March 2010 and knew the figures inside out. I had also been in detailed discussions with the Treasury on the funding of adult social care, in preparation for a White Paper. The implication of what the Conservatives featured on an election poster—cutting the deficit on an accelerated timetable while giving the NHS real-terms increases—could mean only one thing: unpalatable cuts to other public services, particularly adult social care, on which the NHS relies.

Despite that, the election pledge was carried over into the coalition agreement, which could not be clearer. It states:

“We will guarantee that health spending increases in real terms in each year of the Parliament”.

A year ago, at the time of the comprehensive spending review, the official figures claimed that that had been delivered, with a 0.1% settlement—essentially the same as Labour promised at the election.

--- Later in debate ---

[Andy Burnham]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for those words and I shall come to precisely that point, but let us be clear about this one: the Prime Minister promised a real-terms increase, but he has delivered a real-terms cut. He stands at the Dispatch Box week after week boasting about increasing health funding when he has not. All the while, NHS staff deal with the reality on the ground of his NHS cuts. Does he not realise how hopelessly out of touch he sounds? Hospitals everywhere are making severe cuts to services, closing wards, reducing A and E hours and closing overnight, making nurses redundant, and cutting training places. Last week, The Guardian revealed the random rationing that is taking place across the country. There are cuts to pay for management services, one third of neo-natal units are reducing the number of nurses, and midwife places are being cut despite the Prime Minister’s promise to recruit 3,000 more.

[Dr Poulter]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a great deal out of cuts. The Government have committed an extra £15 billion to the NHS over the lifetime of this Parliament, but the Opposition have consistently failed to agree to commit to any additional funding. Will he make that commitment now?

[Andy Burnham]

A moment ago, the hon. Gentleman acknowledged that I protected the NHS front line as Health Secretary. As Health Secretary, I would not have introduced a £2.5 billion reorganisation when the NHS is facing severe financial stress.